Xp tnl, Leveling options in MMO/RPGs Options

[2d10]

Having done a lot of online gaming and being a big fan of MMOs I have often pondered the ever popular leveling device used by developers in this genre of xp tnl (experience points to next level) This is essentially where you must gain so much xp before you level up.
Any ideas on another system that breaks away from this traditional one?
A little idea I like is along the lines of what Fable and more recently GTA San Andreas used where ingame actions reflect on the appearance and function of your character. Eating/drinking/running/swimming/weapon use/good vs evil deeds, for example, all played a crucial part in your character's performance in both games.
I would like to see a system where instead of level grinding to be king, weapon proficiency and physical exertion within the game world would reflect a character's ultimate "level" as such. Thus, the more territory you covered on foot and the more combat you took part in would lead to a fitter stronger character with better weapon skills than say a character that used a 3rd party form of transport to travel the world or did not fight that often.
I've done the level grind on WoW, FFxi, and CoX and whilst all great games the leveling process felt like a bit of a chore at times.
Just a thought...anyone got any other ideas?

[tenabrae]

Doesn't matter what the mechanic hiding it is, whether you're grinding xp or grinding skill points it's still grinding. Plenty of games have hidden it in skill improvements rather than levels... an obvious example of both is WoW, XP grind to level, skill grind for professions.

Fable is still a grind, you bash things to get points to improve your skills the only variation there is your use of magic missile or melee varies yourm., incidental extra xp in those areas, you can still max a 'class' on general xp without ever using that skill.

The Elder Scrolls series is a better example, your level-based stat improvements are very tied to the types of actions you've taken between levels but you can still choose to spend you level-based improvement points on less-efficient choices if you like.

In your example, the character who didn't run around fighting and rode on the cobb and co coach would probably be improving skills your plebb warrior could never dream of like merchandising and carousing.

If we're talking about MMOs primarily don't ever forget, they want you grinding, it's part of their model to keep you playing and paying, that's the whole point.

This post has been edited by tenabrae: Mar 30 2008, 07:09 PM

[Assaultguardsman]

XP is a number your players can look at as you charge money. The "pay money to look at numbers move" MMO model is extremely successful because your players can immediately see the change.

[tenabrae]

XP is a number your players can look at as you charge money. The "pay money to look at numbers move" MMO model is extremely successful because your players can immediately see the change.

Indeed... back when I was playing WoW one of my guildies was obsessed with 'filling in every box'.

[2d10]

Curse those developers and their money making schemes lol!

[Cypher]

I believe that Vampire: The Masquerade uses a non-level based system. You "improve" via skill points which increase your abilities.

Im not a fan of level based systems, where it becomes impossible to kill something because its too high a level, despite the fact that the only reason you cant do it is the level modifiers to your actions. The reason its such a popular system is because its easy to balance: you can quantify at any point how difficult an encounter will be.

[WMD]

Well four spring to mind

WOW = xp and faction points
UO = use of skills
EVE = time based
LineageII = very equipment dependt

That the nature of MMOs those I sworn of them as this years resolution. There evil time consuming things. And after playing a bunch most of them are nothing but rather dull affairs. Of course party mechanics and pvp are the real draw cards for me but these dont excit me anymore

[tenabrae]

I believe that Vampire: The Masquerade uses a non-level based system. You "improve" via skill points which increase your abilities.

A skill based system doesn't necessarily conquer that, if you only have sword 5 and the enemy has dont get hit by sword 20 you're getting the same effect. Also the flaw in purely skill systems is they're generally easy to exploit or work around by finding one borken thing and using it - in Hellgate: London for example it's basically impossible to kill the end boss on Nightmare mode... except if you manage to ignite him (does a flat % of damage) so even though level comparison wise your skills won't take him down, stack enough +ignite (exploiting the mechanic to do something your character shouldn't be capable of)) and it's very doable.

This post has been edited by tenabrae: Mar 30 2008, 08:20 PM

[Cypher]

Yeah but it does feel more realistic. Saying that a total noob with a sword cant hit a master with a sword makes sense. I was talking about the system where if you're X levels below an enemy you can't hurt them, even if all your stats are otherwise suitable. It feels cheap to me.

Its also silly when you get to high levels, and you've got boars and bears that could single handedly wipe out the entire starting area, guards and all.

This post has been edited by Cypher: Mar 30 2008, 08:26 PM

[Kn'Thrak]

In regards to eve it both is and isn't balanced. A total noob can still hurt high sp players, but a new player will never get to the same skill level as those older players.

[tenabrae]

Yeah but it does feel more realistic. Saying that a total noob with a sword cant hit a master with a sword makes sense. I was talking about the system where if you're X levels below an enemy you can't hurt them, even if all your stats are otherwise suitable. It feels cheap to me.

The opposite is where you _can_ hurt them however pathetically and some guy with a bow spends an hour plinking away and kills some mob far tougher than him for uberloots... the Gothic series (not an MMO) suffers this affliction greatly with its large monsters.

Hellgate has kinda the opposite problem, if some.,thing's too high above you you get no xp for killingm., it, and there are classes, builds and just parts of the game where you can easily kill monsters significantly above your level.

Either way it basically comes down to the same thing, you're really talking about the way you prefer your background mechanics to be rolling the dice.

[Guard_Treadhead]

MMO's are e-crack for e-junkies and e-grindwhores, seriously we've all heard the stories about the people who lose their lives (figuratively) to mmo's.

[Chaplain_Fortis]

MMO's are e-crack for e-junkies and e-grindwhores, seriously we've all heard the stories about the people who lose their lives (figuratively) to mmo's.

Or even actually. There was a case where a particularly poorly socially adjusted individual blew his brains out due to an event in Everquest.
Back on topic i was a massive diablo junkie but have stayed away from mmos for the afore mentioned reasons. I personally like the classic leveling system. To speak ill of it is a sacrilege to the nerd god, Gary Gygax. RIP.