Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Combat Reforms - Sliding, The Thing That Should Not Be... But kind of IS.
Forgebreaker
post Apr 9 2015, 01:35 PM
Post #21


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,015
Joined: 4-December 09
From: Newcastle, NSW
Member No.: 8,567



Haha, FUEDing, I love it.

The point is reforming doesn't allow actual movement other than the unit changing its formation. The Errata covering a unit not having to keep the same centre point just allows units to maintain base contact, rather than being nudged out an inch or so as one of the units tries to keep the same centre.

I'm sure if I went "Ok, my unit of two Beasts of Nurgle are going to reform' outside of combat and moved them 12" sideways it'd be more obvious that it's not the right thing to do.

This post has been edited by Forgebreaker: Apr 9 2015, 01:36 PM


--------------------
Tom Mitchell
Podcast Wizard
Check out The Hobby Forge Podcast on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-hob...rge/id964027116
Follow me on Twitter @forgebreaker and the podcast @thehobbyforge
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
anarchy.inc
post Apr 9 2015, 01:41 PM
Post #22


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 2,691
Joined: 6-August 10
Member No.: 9,891



Pick the unit up, and place it down following all the restrictions for a combat reform.

Which restriction stops sliding?


--------------------
Red Jokers: a faux shaux
Flipping red jokers since 2015
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Forgebreaker
post Apr 9 2015, 01:54 PM
Post #23


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,015
Joined: 4-December 09
From: Newcastle, NSW
Member No.: 8,567



The only ways to move that I can see in the rules are:
a) change your facing
b) expand your frontage

I know it's a moot point (haha, moot!) to even try and talk about this, so many people do it and they're not gonna change now unless it's specifically addressed in another errata or FAQ.

Also, whenever you read something I've written down, do it with a great big smile biggrin.gif


--------------------
Tom Mitchell
Podcast Wizard
Check out The Hobby Forge Podcast on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-hob...rge/id964027116
Follow me on Twitter @forgebreaker and the podcast @thehobbyforge
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ehsteve
post Apr 9 2015, 01:56 PM
Post #24


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 892
Joined: 18-September 11
From: The Moon
Member No.: 11,874



QUOTE(Forgebreaker @ Apr 9 2015, 01:35 PM) *

Haha, FUEDing, I love it.

I have seen that word (fued, fu'ed, and all variants therein) many times in the past few months...what does it mean?


--------------------
"I am editing this post, pray I do not edit it any further."
HMBC: "...Step 5: Continue repeating Steps 3 and 4 until all players have Forged a Narrative™..."

The GW WHFB F.A.R.Q. series: charging magic killing blow characters challenges
QUOTE(Iapedus)
QUOTE(Dicrel)
I figured if he had to slam into anyone Hammer-of-Wrath-style, then boots or pauldron would be the best options, other body parts seem too unnatural or dangerous to try.
Any Marine worth his salt uses his face.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
N.I.C.K
post Apr 9 2015, 02:13 PM
Post #25


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 6,006
Joined: 27-August 08
Member No.: 5,981



QUOTE(Ehsteve @ Apr 9 2015, 01:56 PM) *

I have seen that word (fued, fu'ed, and all variants therein) many times in the past few months...what does it mean?


Sig'd


--------------------
QUOTE(Ehsteve @ Apr 9 2015, 01:56 PM) *

I have seen that word (fued, fu'ed, and all variants therein) many times in the past few months...what does it mean?


Adjective; Fued: The art of being inherently awesome, having excessive amounts of swag and generally giving zero farks.

Active member of the Infernal Muppets Gaming Club | Tweet @lecopoutking
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Forgebreaker
post Apr 9 2015, 02:22 PM
Post #26


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,015
Joined: 4-December 09
From: Newcastle, NSW
Member No.: 8,567



Haha!

Ok well, I can see how the errata update can be seen as allowing units or single models to magically slide sideways, I think the intention of it was to make Combat Reforms keep units in contact with each other while they lessen the number of ranks and increase files, and now we have Tokyo Drift cartwheeling models.


--------------------
Tom Mitchell
Podcast Wizard
Check out The Hobby Forge Podcast on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-hob...rge/id964027116
Follow me on Twitter @forgebreaker and the podcast @thehobbyforge
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
hmjesus
post Apr 9 2015, 02:39 PM
Post #27


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 979
Joined: 30-August 12
Member No.: 13,419



I'd say you can only slide so far as the unit is wide (since one side of the unit isn't moving). I got nothing to back that up, just wanted to weigh in on the last rules debate of 8th Edition.


--------------------
WFB: Bretonnians, Ogre Kingdoms, Chaos Dwarfs
WMH: Protectorate of Menoth
T9A: Ogre Khans, Kingdoms of Equitaine, Infernal Dwarfs, Clown Dynasties

Creepiest Army: Undying Clown Dynasties - Cancon2018

Check out my battle reports at Gallantry & Gluttony

Druid 2.0: DND5e Druid Wildshape support app.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ehsteve
post Apr 9 2015, 03:00 PM
Post #28


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 892
Joined: 18-September 11
From: The Moon
Member No.: 11,874



QUOTE(Forgebreaker @ Apr 9 2015, 02:22 PM) *

Haha!

Ok well, I can see how the errata update can be seen as allowing units or single models to magically slide sideways, I think the intention of it was to make Combat Reforms keep units in contact with each other while they lessen the number of ranks and increase files, and now we have Tokyo Drift cartwheeling models.

Either intentional or unintentional, hopefully we won't have to deal with it in the next edition...or we will, but in a less frustrating manner.


--------------------
"I am editing this post, pray I do not edit it any further."
HMBC: "...Step 5: Continue repeating Steps 3 and 4 until all players have Forged a Narrative™..."

The GW WHFB F.A.R.Q. series: charging magic killing blow characters challenges
QUOTE(Iapedus)
QUOTE(Dicrel)
I figured if he had to slam into anyone Hammer-of-Wrath-style, then boots or pauldron would be the best options, other body parts seem too unnatural or dangerous to try.
Any Marine worth his salt uses his face.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Maximus3
post Apr 9 2015, 05:53 PM
Post #29


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,166
Joined: 28-December 10
Member No.: 10,541



Situation 1: A chariot charges into the front of a horde of infantry, contacting the 4 leftmost models. Is it allowed to combat reform to slide down and be in contact with the 4 rightmost models at the end of combat?

I think the answer is no because it is taking the 4 leftmost enemy models out of combat.

Situation 2: my ranked unit charges into combat with a ranked enemy unit and is only able to clip corner to corner for some reason (eg. units in the way). At the end of combat is my unit able to slide down to bring every model from both sides into combat?

I think the answer is yes as long as the two models who started in contact remain in base contact with 'an' enemy (this may be a different enemy as stated in the combat reform section) and no model moves more than double its movement

This post has been edited by Maximus3: Apr 9 2015, 06:04 PM


--------------------
All aboard the Spidah Ridah Express!

#wollongronks4life

Herminard "Swedish girls are a burden brought to us by mighty Loke himself, to force us from the toys and into the foul realm of moving awkwardly to pop music"
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Forgebreaker
post Apr 9 2015, 06:06 PM
Post #30


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,015
Joined: 4-December 09
From: Newcastle, NSW
Member No.: 8,567



Or the one that's better value, 10 wolves charge in two wide, then combat reform into a giant sideways conga that blocks a butt load of models from moving.


--------------------
Tom Mitchell
Podcast Wizard
Check out The Hobby Forge Podcast on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-hob...rge/id964027116
Follow me on Twitter @forgebreaker and the podcast @thehobbyforge
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Maximus3
post Apr 9 2015, 06:08 PM
Post #31


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,166
Joined: 28-December 10
Member No.: 10,541



QUOTE(Forgebreaker @ Apr 9 2015, 06:06 PM) *

Or the one that's better value, 10 wolves charge in two wide, then combat reform into a giant sideways conga that blocks a butt load of models from moving.


Totally legit tacticz


--------------------
All aboard the Spidah Ridah Express!

#wollongronks4life

Herminard "Swedish girls are a burden brought to us by mighty Loke himself, to force us from the toys and into the foul realm of moving awkwardly to pop music"
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Uncertain Foe
post Apr 10 2015, 02:18 AM
Post #32


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 103
Joined: 26-August 10
Member No.: 10,006



My memory is that a combat reform is a normal reform in all senses save that you don't need to keep the centre of your unit the same.

The book also uses language to strongly suggest that the uses of a reform are to change the number of ranks, or the number of files, or the facing of a unit. Sliding does not fall into any of these categories.

Summary:
Forgebreaker = right
sliding = gamey basterd

Then again I'm drunk, so who the hell knows. Ah, 8th. I'll miss you and your sometimes precise, sometimes ambiguous rules!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Blade_of_Apollo
post Apr 10 2015, 09:12 AM
Post #33


Flowchart Engineer
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 14,439
Joined: 25-April 09
Member No.: 7,351



QUOTE(Ehsteve @ Apr 9 2015, 01:30 PM) *
PS: Blade of Apollo, I jumped the gun a little on the 'inability to reform to face a flank to the enemy', was thinking of the 'engaged on two fronts=no combat reform', sometimes thinking gets ahead of typing wacko.gif


All good, just making sure I wasn't doing something wrong, as I do this occasionally.


--------------------
QUOTE(morsla @ Feb 24 2013, 11:06 AM) *

Let not your vigilance fail, valiant OT crusader. Without people like you, the Internet must surely fall.

QUOTE(Chaplain_Fortis @ Nov 28 2014, 10:23 AM) *

I prefer to critique things from a point of limited information and no understanding.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Demetrius
post Apr 10 2015, 09:30 AM
Post #34


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,736
Joined: 31-August 06
From: Melbourne
Member No.: 3,123



FWIW, sliding should be allowed because sometimes you need to slide across to bring more models into base contact during your combat reform. As soon as you stop the ability to slide, you limit the ability to do this. Unfortunately it does allow people to do some gamey things like the aforementioned Beast of Nurgle slide from one end of a horde to the other, but is this kind of thing really that worse than conga lining or double flee, which most tournament players in Australia accept as part of the game now?


--------------------
QUOTE(RojoDiver @ May 11 2015, 08:44 PM) *

Stop it Roy! You guys are going to break Warhammer. We can't handle these levels of frivolity, fun and far from optimal formats. ETC is meant to be a dour affair.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ehsteve
post Apr 10 2015, 10:55 AM
Post #35


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 892
Joined: 18-September 11
From: The Moon
Member No.: 11,874



QUOTE(Uncertain Foe @ Apr 10 2015, 02:18 AM) *

My memory is that a combat reform is a normal reform in all senses save that you don't need to keep the centre of your unit the same.

The book also uses language to strongly suggest that the uses of a reform are to change the number of ranks, or the number of files, or the facing of a unit. Sliding does not fall into any of these categories.

Summary:
Forgebreaker = right
sliding = gamey basterd

Then again I'm drunk, so who the hell knows. Ah, 8th. I'll miss you and your sometimes precise, sometimes ambiguous rules!

While technically wrong, you can use 'sliding' to save time so long as the end result is the same.

You are actually supposed to measure and move each individual model to ensure it doesn't exceed double its normal movement, which for units like dwarfs is quite possible in some cases.

As for single-model units (lone models), you cannot reform ranks and files at all, mainly because you have precisely 1 and 1, and there is nothing to reform in that manner, just your facing, so a single model is literally stuck in place and can only rotate. They deal with this by allowing all single-model units to pivot for no movement penalty in normal movement (and as such do not need to reform). So if a Monster were to reform...it could only change its facing, you'd have to wait for your enemy to reform around you. Hence even contentionally a moster cannot slide.

I'm not saying sliding is right, just that as a *convention*, if you are playing it by the letter, it can save a lot of time.


--------------------
"I am editing this post, pray I do not edit it any further."
HMBC: "...Step 5: Continue repeating Steps 3 and 4 until all players have Forged a Narrative™..."

The GW WHFB F.A.R.Q. series: charging magic killing blow characters challenges
QUOTE(Iapedus)
QUOTE(Dicrel)
I figured if he had to slam into anyone Hammer-of-Wrath-style, then boots or pauldron would be the best options, other body parts seem too unnatural or dangerous to try.
Any Marine worth his salt uses his face.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Forgebreaker
post Apr 10 2015, 11:01 AM
Post #36


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,015
Joined: 4-December 09
From: Newcastle, NSW
Member No.: 8,567



Yeah, so I can see now it's a thing, I'm just not a complete fan of its applications in some situations, mostly single models swapping corners to let other units charge in and such. In my mind, the fact that the unit doesn't have to maintain the same centre was simply to stop hardcore rules lawyers from saying 'you can't reform, otherwise your unit will be taken out of base contact'.

Since everyone's cool with it, I'll start abusing it in my games! Haha


--------------------
Tom Mitchell
Podcast Wizard
Check out The Hobby Forge Podcast on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-hob...rge/id964027116
Follow me on Twitter @forgebreaker and the podcast @thehobbyforge
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ehsteve
post Apr 10 2015, 11:22 AM
Post #37


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 892
Joined: 18-September 11
From: The Moon
Member No.: 11,874



QUOTE(Forgebreaker @ Apr 10 2015, 11:01 AM) *
Since everyone's cool with it, I'll start abusing it in my games! Haha

I've never been fine with single-model sliding (tokyo drift chariot), or sliding in general apart from situations where it is obvious. That said when some games can be 3 hours or more...it can be hard to keep caring.


--------------------
"I am editing this post, pray I do not edit it any further."
HMBC: "...Step 5: Continue repeating Steps 3 and 4 until all players have Forged a Narrative™..."

The GW WHFB F.A.R.Q. series: charging magic killing blow characters challenges
QUOTE(Iapedus)
QUOTE(Dicrel)
I figured if he had to slam into anyone Hammer-of-Wrath-style, then boots or pauldron would be the best options, other body parts seem too unnatural or dangerous to try.
Any Marine worth his salt uses his face.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Maximus3
post Apr 10 2015, 11:34 AM
Post #38


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 1,166
Joined: 28-December 10
Member No.: 10,541



I still don't understand how a single model slides from 1 end of a unit to another. It is taking certain models out of combat

Perhaps I am missing an FAQ here?


--------------------
All aboard the Spidah Ridah Express!

#wollongronks4life

Herminard "Swedish girls are a burden brought to us by mighty Loke himself, to force us from the toys and into the foul realm of moving awkwardly to pop music"
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Psyche
post Apr 10 2015, 12:29 PM
Post #39


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 2,485
Joined: 26-April 06
From: Western Sydney
Member No.: 2,735



QUOTE(Maximus3 @ Apr 9 2015, 05:53 PM) *

Situation 1: A chariot charges into the front of a horde of infantry, contacting the 4 leftmost models. Is it allowed to combat reform to slide down and be in contact with the 4 rightmost models at the end of combat?

I think the answer is no because it is taking the 4 leftmost enemy models out of combat.


The answer is no. ( my reading of the rules at least)
pg 55 tells you two things that you can do with a combat reform. first and most common it says you can allow the unit to turn to face a different direction. The second is to increase unit frontage.
It then goes on to say you cannot use it to take any model (from either side) out of base contact. However it does then say that the models in base contact may be in contact with a different enemy model.

So. In your first example, if you slide your chariot from the left 4 models to the right 4 models, then those left ones are no longer in base contact. The unit is yes, and the chariot is in contact with the same number enemy, however the combat reform specifies 'models'. Also by 'sliding' form left to right you have broken the reform rule on pg 14. Remembering that combat reform section specifies that it is still a reform as on pg 14, however it can be done whilst in combat.
pg 14 states that you must 'keep the centre point of the unit the same'. If you slide, it's no longer the same, it's nor a few inch's removed.

QUOTE(Maximus3 @ Apr 9 2015, 05:53 PM) *

Situation 2: my ranked unit charges into combat with a ranked enemy unit and is only able to clip corner to corner for some reason (eg. units in the way). At the end of combat is my unit able to slide down to bring every model from both sides into combat?

I think the answer is yes as long as the two models who started in contact remain in base contact with 'an' enemy (this may be a different enemy as stated in the combat reform section) and no model moves more than double its movement


Again, however you would have moved the centreline of your unit considerably from it's initial position. Breaking pg 14

This post has been edited by Psyche: Apr 10 2015, 12:30 PM


--------------------
there are no bad choices if it has "Elves" in the title.

There are only bad people....and they play Elves
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Ehsteve
post Apr 10 2015, 12:36 PM
Post #40


Member
*

Group: Veteran Members
Posts: 892
Joined: 18-September 11
From: The Moon
Member No.: 11,874



QUOTE(Psyche @ Apr 10 2015, 12:29 PM) *
pg 14 states that you must 'keep the centre point of the unit the same'. If you slide, it's no longer the same, it's nor a few inch's removed.
Again, however you would have moved the centreline of your unit considerably from it's initial position. Breaking pg 14

Look at the rulebook errata, it removes the restiction that the unit must reform around the initial centre point of the unit


--------------------
"I am editing this post, pray I do not edit it any further."
HMBC: "...Step 5: Continue repeating Steps 3 and 4 until all players have Forged a Narrative™..."

The GW WHFB F.A.R.Q. series: charging magic killing blow characters challenges
QUOTE(Iapedus)
QUOTE(Dicrel)
I figured if he had to slam into anyone Hammer-of-Wrath-style, then boots or pauldron would be the best options, other body parts seem too unnatural or dangerous to try.
Any Marine worth his salt uses his face.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

5 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th October 2018 - 09:11 PM