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> AoS one day tournament
Mr_Roy
post Jul 3 2015, 07:16 AM
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I am going to run a one dayer at good games on the 15th or 22nd of August. Just waiting for gg to confirm the date.



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[AoS] Age of Kislev: bringing Kislev back from the dead

Waaagh! of the Dead - my undead orcs and goblins army

QUOTE(Demetrius @ Feb 24 2015, 03:02 PM) *

I'm struggling to understand the relevance of WA mining profits to a discussion about the masters for a toy soldiers game, but thanks for your input.
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ralphy
post Jul 3 2015, 12:17 PM
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keen for this, hopefully by then I will have had more than a few test games
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akorndr2
post Jul 3 2015, 05:53 PM
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Def keen i would prefer the 22nd as ill be back from the united states tongue.gif
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Mitou
post Jul 4 2015, 04:00 AM
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👍 very good news, will be there.
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Lanek
post Jul 4 2015, 01:56 PM
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I'll come, but to be honest these rules really don't appeal to me, how would we know how big we should make the armies?



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Dwarfs, boring? Never! I find shooting my war machines quite enjoyable.

Yes i'm THAT guy who loves watching Dwarf battle reports on Youtube.
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akorndr2
post Jul 4 2015, 05:40 PM
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I would say we have a model limit which would be appropriate i think
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tensions
post Jul 5 2015, 07:15 PM
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it appears cap on both models and wounds are recommended by most.

cap on models to control the length of the game, read some battle reports and 100 models game is roughly 2-2.5 hours.

and cap on wounds for comp.

This post has been edited by tensions: Jul 5 2015, 07:16 PM


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Mr_Roy
post Jul 5 2015, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE(tensions @ Jul 5 2015, 07:15 PM) *

it appears cap on both models and wounds are recommended by most.

cap on models to control the length of the game, read some battle reports and 100 models game is roughly 2-2.5 hours.

and cap on wounds for comp.


I really dont like the idea model and wound caps. 100 dwarfs is always going to be better than 100 goblins.

These are the restrictions I am planning.
- Measure to the closest point on the base
- Minimum 6 warscrolls
- Minimum 30 models
- Maximum 2 of each warscroll


--------------------
[AoS] Age of Kislev: bringing Kislev back from the dead

Waaagh! of the Dead - my undead orcs and goblins army

QUOTE(Demetrius @ Feb 24 2015, 03:02 PM) *

I'm struggling to understand the relevance of WA mining profits to a discussion about the masters for a toy soldiers game, but thanks for your input.
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akorndr2
post Jul 6 2015, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE(Mr_Roy @ Jul 5 2015, 09:49 PM) *

I really dont like the idea model and wound caps. 100 dwarfs is always going to be better than 100 goblins.

These are the restrictions I am planning.
- Measure to the closest point on the base
- Minimum 6 warscrolls
- Minimum 30 models
- Maximum 2 of each warscroll


yep i agree, are we allowed to use the formations?

This post has been edited by akorndr2: Jul 6 2015, 08:40 AM
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tensions
post Jul 6 2015, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE(Mr_Roy @ Jul 5 2015, 11:49 PM) *

I really dont like the idea model and wound caps. 100 dwarfs is always going to be better than 100 goblins.

These are the restrictions I am planning.
- Measure to the closest point on the base
- Minimum 6 warscrolls
- Minimum 30 models
- Maximum 2 of each warscroll



Yes,it's hard, many questions were raised.

If you don't have max models cap, then it is hard to determine the size and length of the game
If you have max model cap then you have multiple wounds model vs single wound model situation.
If you then have wound cap, then you have elite vs horde model situation.

Then my brain busted.


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akorndr2
post Jul 6 2015, 09:34 AM
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should we have like a army cap, from what ive been hearing the games have been going pretty quickly also should we not use sudden death?
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JPM
post Jul 6 2015, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE(tensions @ Jul 6 2015, 09:08 AM) *



Yes,it's hard, many questions were raised.

If you don't have max models cap, then it is hard to determine the size and length of the game
If you have max model cap then you have multiple wounds model vs single wound model situation.
If you then have wound cap, then you have elite vs horde model situation.

Then my brain busted.


Completely agree with you Simon, I've looked at what people have suggested and esp with wounds -- look at the compendum's -- there is no incentive to take the 'basic' troop over an 'elite' troop -- like Ogres - Why take an Ogre for 1 Model/4 Wounds when an Irongut or Maneater or Leadbelcher is the same and so much better. Same with Lizards, why take Saurus/Skinks when Temple Gurad/Chameleons are infinately better for the 'same cost' under these restrictions.

I've looked at some of the formula's people are constructing with to hit plus to wound plus save divided by wound or whatever they are doing and it's impossible to follow/comprehend.

What's the answer? I have no idea -- I like think the best balance is in just the RAW setup phase - no army list, tailor to each battle, but to do that - you a) need your whole collection and gives an inherent advantage to some and b) people will be playing a lot of games with low model counts or have a feeling of being in a totally hopeless situation far earlier.
To me Goblins etc NEED 30+ models in a unit to be effective, and that leaves them susceptible to losing - or being forces into sudden death games frequently (vs Ogre like every time?).

I feel for O&G, skaven or other armies that need a large model count to be effective cos I think they are going to be a hard army to make work with the way victory is determined. But is it a game for low model count/elite armies to succeed or be at a big advantage? We will see smile.gif

I have no idea what the solution is......bar play games and see -- find it interesting though, cos Ogres are great when you consider how 'low' their model count is for such punch/attacks etc, they'll get Sudden Death conditions more frequently -- they can be quite strong cos of that.

Anyway, just ramblings....I have no answers, I'm keen to play and try things out, I see no real way of balancing vs having a meaningful conversation with your opponent.

Hahaha oh, and then there is summoning......that's another can of worms.

This post has been edited by JPM: Jul 6 2015, 09:51 AM
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DarthSabre
post Jul 6 2015, 12:50 PM
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My opinion - based on reading a lot of the warscrolls (but not all) and not playing a game

Game will be unbalanced if you limit to warscrolls - people will just take the best stuff and model and wound counts will totally unbalance the game - both need to be taken into account.

Beauty of WFB was the Lords/Heros/Core/Special/Rare dissection - made people take some stuff that wasn't as good as their best stuff.

So I suggest warscrolls are split as follows;

Hero Warscrolls - previous Lords/Hero's
Core Warscrolls - Previous core
Elite Warscrolls - Previous Special/Rare troops

Maximum 7 scrolls

Hero Warscrolls - Limits: 2 warscrolls, 20 wounds
Core warscrolls - Limits: 2 warscrolls, no duplicate warscroll, Maximum 25 models/wounds per warscroll (which ever achieved first)
Elite Warscroll - Limits: 3 warscrolls, no duplicate warscrolls, maximum 20 models/wounds per warscroll (whichever achieved first)

Other caps
- maximum flyers 3?
- maximum shoots 25? (warmachines counted as maximum as they can wound each turn (ie Bolt Thrower = 6, Canon = 6 (dwarf warmachine might take some looking at as they have some that could potentially go over 6)

summoning - difficult one but does need some control

This post has been edited by DarthSabre: Jul 6 2015, 12:52 PM


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akorndr2
post Jul 6 2015, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE(DarthSabre @ Jul 6 2015, 12:50 PM) *

My opinion - based on reading a lot of the warscrolls (but not all) and not playing a game

Game will be unbalanced if you limit to warscrolls - people will just take the best stuff and model and wound counts will totally unbalance the game - both need to be taken into account.

Beauty of WFB was the Lords/Heros/Core/Special/Rare dissection - made people take some stuff that wasn't as good as their best stuff.

So I suggest warscrolls are split as follows;

Hero Warscrolls - previous Lords/Hero's
Core Warscrolls - Previous core
Elite Warscrolls - Previous Special/Rare troops

Maximum 7 scrolls

Hero Warscrolls - Limits: 2 warscrolls, 20 wounds
Core warscrolls - Limits: 2 warscrolls, no duplicate warscroll, Maximum 25 models/wounds per warscroll (which ever achieved first)
Elite Warscroll - Limits: 3 warscrolls, no duplicate warscrolls, maximum 20 models/wounds per warscroll (whichever achieved first)

Other caps
- maximum flyers 3?
- maximum shoots 25? (warmachines counted as maximum as they can wound each turn (ie Bolt Thrower = 6, Canon = 6 (dwarf warmachine might take some looking at as they have some that could potentially go over 6)

summoning - difficult one but does need some control


my wood elves would get punished as most of my core is shooting
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DarthSabre
post Jul 6 2015, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE(akorndr2 @ Jul 6 2015, 12:58 PM) *

my wood elves would get punished as most of my core is shooting



Glade guard = shooting
Glade rider = shooting
Dryads = no shooting
Eternal Guard = no shooting

so 50% = shooting

and caps were just a suggestion - think Swedish - that comp limits shooting

This post has been edited by DarthSabre: Jul 6 2015, 01:08 PM


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tensions
post Jul 6 2015, 03:25 PM
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I'd suspect the comp will Eventually becomes something similar to Swedish comp and etc comp.

However, without lots of test playing it is almost impossible to do so right this moment.

What you suggested, eg max 2 hero scrolls, does not stop ppl from taking the "best" 2 heroes choices, while a goblin player is unable to take 3 goblin big bosses.

Same apply to elite warscrolls, a terrorghiest does not equal a bat swarm.

Personally, I think the only way to balance the game to the point where it is considered as a competitive tournament game like 8th.
We need to either,

1. create a point system for the game and allocate a point value for each warscroll, like Swedish comp.

2. Have either a wound or model caps for each individual warscroll, then have a "pool" system for each individual factions, like current ETC comp.

But those would require a huge amount of test play.

Any Major overall gamewise restrictions will just handicap one army or the other.

This post has been edited by tensions: Jul 6 2015, 03:28 PM


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akorndr2
post Jul 6 2015, 05:48 PM
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Should we just take everything. If i take the wanderer host im looking at around 80 models
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akorndr2
post Jul 8 2015, 09:09 AM
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Gw basically said the samething on how to balance the game 1-12 warscrolls 1-2 heros and 1-2 monster scrolls
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ralphy
post Jul 8 2015, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE(akorndr2 @ Jul 8 2015, 09:09 AM) *

Gw basically said the samething on how to balance the game 1-12 warscrolls 1-2 heros and 1-2 monster scrolls


It isnt official, it is something that supposedly came from GW employee as a way to balance. Additionally it suggests no more than X wounds per warscroll (eg 24) and no repeats of hero warscrolls and max 2 repeats of another warscroll
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akorndr2
post Jul 13 2015, 08:26 PM
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I was thinking, instead of using sudden death when your army is outnumbered by models on the table but by warscrolls. Means you could fit more models into a unit and maintain a level playing field which might be fairer to horde style armies
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