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> Fight Phase Core rules quandry..... :)
Blackhearts Reaver
post Aug 26 2017, 08:39 PM
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Just a funny little situation that made me double take the rules again, alot of people have the current Charge and assault rules set... seemingly pretty straight forward.

Upon a closer reading in a certain situation I was put in two minds of some core Rules..... odd but it is a new edition....


So situation:

-Unit A gets charged by Enemy Unit Z (doesn't die).
-Unit B and Unit C and Unit D counter charge in the next turn.
-Enemy Unit Z gets Wiped out by Unit B (as first pick as a Charging unit for this phase)

Do Unit C and unit D get to act in the Fight Phase. Effectively are they allowed to run though the Fight phase steps even though Enemy Unit Z is completely dead.


Intuitively the automatic answer is NO they have no enemy within 1"..... that is the common thoughts on it.

The actual rule says this:
QUOTE(Fight Phase)
Any unit that charged or has models within1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players choose eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of there remaining fights, one unit after another....


So the interesting conditions are:
-Has to have charged this turn
- has to have an enemy unit within 1" can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.

1) Condition 1 > So if Charge Phase is over >>( you know who charged)
2) Condition 2 > the eligibility of enemy within 1" is that assessed as soon as you get into the Fight Phase or only when they get picked ? (the wording does not specifically say at the time they are picked.). Also once you are into the red box stuff you are in what they call the "Fight Sequence" as opposed to already being in the "Fight Phase" basically as soon as the Charge phase is over....

EG in the example if it is assessed in the Fight Phase Does that make Units C an D eligible to Pile 3" and consolidate 3" because they were within 1" of the enemy when the turn entered the Fight Phase. Or is there some timing qualification hidden in the syntax of the wording so they cant't move at all because (enemy within 1") is assessed at the time of picking the Unit C and Unit D.


To me it comes down to the emphasis? is it on the "can be chosen to fight" or the "in the Fight Phase".
I know if an FaQ is sought they will probably rule it like the current conventional wisdom on the subject because will be tidier and quicker but it was and interesting point.....



We will forget the errata of also making both qualifications needed in the first sentence, by saying AND instead of OR.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Aug 26 2017, 08:50 PM


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fofjunior
post Aug 26 2017, 10:38 PM
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I think its pretty simple if you keep reading the rule as you go through. You chose B to fight 1st so they get the 3"pile in plus consolidate.

Units C and D don't get the pile in because there is no enemy to fight when you choose them in the order so they miss that step and only get to consolidate as they were part of the overall battle.

It makes more sense when you think about it as a whole sequence especially when there is the stratagem to interupt the sequence.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Aug 27 2017, 12:03 AM
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that is the exact point I was looking at critically. The qualification is "in the Fight phase." and that is as soon as the Charge phase is over. Once you are fiddling with units and consolidates etc you are already in "Fight sequence" ... the Fight phase has already started. So the the qualification [enemy within 1" ] check has already been done..... Fight phase.


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Waaagh!!!
post Aug 28 2017, 11:46 AM
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Covered in the designers notes:

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of course, consolidate.

This post has been edited by Waaagh!!!: Aug 28 2017, 11:46 AM
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Demon
post Aug 28 2017, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE(Waaagh!!! @ Aug 28 2017, 11:46 AM) *

Covered in the designers notes:

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of course, consolidate.


That's a pretty big deal.



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Mister Q
post Aug 28 2017, 03:29 PM
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What's the confusion? If a unit charged this turn it can be chosen to fight. If a unit started the fight phase within 1" of an enemy it can be chosen to fight.

Being chosen to fight doesn't mean it will actually make attacks, if (for example) the enemy has been removed beforehand. In that case the unit can still pile-in and consolidate, possibly locking another unit in combat for the following turn.
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Aug 28 2017, 06:00 PM
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well sadly i have seen another FaQ that now says you can Consolidate and Pile in..... as long as you have charged (even if they died). The designer commentary has been taken down/ been archived? and i cant find a GW source for the FaQ I have read so i cant say if it is official.


This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Aug 28 2017, 06:01 PM


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Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
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Krefey
post Aug 29 2017, 08:47 AM
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How would this affect beserkers who kill a unit, then consolidate to be within 1" of another unit then have a 2nd fight phase?


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Krefey
post Aug 29 2017, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Aug 28 2017, 06:00 PM) *

well sadly i have seen another FaQ that now says you can Consolidate and Pile in..... as long as you have charged (even if they died). The designer commentary has been taken down/ been archived? and i cant find a GW source for the FaQ I have read so i cant say if it is official.


If it's not here:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Rules-Errata#40k-errata

Then it was likely on the Warhammer Community website in one of the articles somewhere.


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Demon
post Aug 29 2017, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE(Mister Q @ Aug 28 2017, 03:29 PM) *

What's the confusion? If a unit charged this turn it can be chosen to fight. If a unit started the fight phase within 1" of an enemy it can be chosen to fight.

Being chosen to fight doesn't mean it will actually make attacks, if (for example) the enemy has been removed beforehand. In that case the unit can still pile-in and consolidate, possibly locking another unit in combat for the following turn.


I meant removing dead guys from 1" of other units already engaged with to deny them having a go but I think BHR just made that sad for me


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Waaagh!!!
post Aug 29 2017, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Aug 28 2017, 06:00 PM) *

well sadly i have seen another FaQ that now says you can Consolidate and Pile in..... as long as you have charged (even if they died). The designer commentary has been taken down/ been archived? and i cant find a GW source for the FaQ I have read so i cant say if it is official.


That was always the case. If you charged, you still get to pile in 3 inches. So for your opponent to stop you attacking, they need to have no one within 4 inches of your charging units when they activate.
Keep in mind this only applies to units that charge. You can pile into a unit you didn't declare a charge against, you just won't be able to attack them.

All of the FAQ/Designer Notes are on the Warhammer Community page. Just do a search for FAQ and they'll show up.

QUOTE(Krefey @ Aug 29 2017, 08:47 AM) *

How would this affect beserkers who kill a unit, then consolidate to be within 1" of another unit then have a 2nd fight phase?


I actually asked this question on the facebook page. I got no answer.

If the Berzerkers were already in combat it's fine, but if they charged during the turn and this happens it brings up a problem.

This post has been edited by Waaagh!!!: Aug 29 2017, 12:37 PM
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Aug 29 2017, 12:39 PM
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I have a saved PDF copy for the Designers notes but the link I bookmarked for it now 404's....


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Waaagh!!!
post Aug 29 2017, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Aug 29 2017, 12:39 PM) *

I have a saved PDF copy for the Designers notes but the link I bookmarked for it now 404's....


https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-s..._Commentary.pdf
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Aug 29 2017, 12:55 PM
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Yeah that is it. So the Designers Commentary has a new edition....


I think GW Better start clearly marking the PDF and Errata with dates and editions.

the version I have is 3 pages and has a different interpretation. IE no Pile in and only consolidate.


Obviously since then they have released a few unit that can attack twice who would be nerfing themselves pretty hard so they have now made it Pile in and Consolidate to give the double assault units 6" to make combat after wiping out enemy units....



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Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
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Mister Q
post Aug 30 2017, 08:31 AM
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A unit that can be chosen to fight can pile in and consolidate. There are only two ways a unit can be chosen to fight. If the enemy has no models within 1" by the time it gets to that unit then the only way it can be chosen to fight is if it charged that turn (and in that case it can only attack what it charged). That's all in the core rules.
Yes, you can remove causalities to deny a second enemy unit the chance to attack (obviously can't deny the unit that's already making causalities). If that second unit charged then they'll get to pile in and try to get close enough, otherwise they're out of luck.
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Krefey
post Aug 30 2017, 09:22 AM
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Don't forget that you can declare a charge against multiple units too. So Zerkers could declare a charge against 2 units, engage one, wipe it out, follow up into the second then fight that one.


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