Feedback thread - Let us know what you think Options

[ArchonCryx]

This year's Lords was clearly the best yet.

While Mark certainly hasn't even had a chance to look over the resukts of our feedback forms, I thought there might be some comments you guys would like to put up for discussion.

Overall I thought we did well. The organisation ran pretty smoothly, with plenty of notice to get such awesome advertising support in White Dwarf (iirc it was 4 months with our full colour page) along with timely advance publishing of our player's pack allowed you guys to know how we'd run it, what missions were involved, etc.

So far I haven't heard a single complaint about the missions themselves at all. I've heard quite a few positive comments over the choose your own adventure mission so far.

Of course, there was some discussion o0n the scorting system for battle as we implemented a more simplified "Win all/lose all" system instead of a three tier "Minor Victory-Major Victory- Annihilation" type structure.

Of course, we also used to run a three-tiered mission objective system as well - with Primary objectives worth just over half your BP total, a secondary worth close to half of that, and the traditional bonuses such as "kill enemy general" for the remainder.

SO in an attempt to simplify, we removed *both* 3 tiered structures. Have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater - should we retain a 3 tier Victory system?

Composition - overall I was very ghappy with the panel scoring. I thoight they did a good job and it didn't feel too harsh to my reading. We did review the comp scorees and adjusted a couple, but I think our Panel did an excellent j0ob as I asked them to be generous and that seems to have helped bring the average up.

SPorts - While it is true a "tick and flick" system can lead to a lot of high sports scores, the "Best Sports" vote element made differentiation simplicity itself.

Timing - while we finished a little overtime, I thought overall we did well with our timing.

Paint scoring. FOr the first yeasr ever I am quite satisfied that I have done a consistent job across the field. A few of you were kind enough to compliment me on taking the time to go throuigh the checklist with every player. I am nsure I spent at least 5 minutes with each of you (except those few who were marked when at lunch or during player's choice). With 87 players, 5 minutes each, I needed over 7 hours, it is no great surprise that I nee4ded to start marking right away in the first round, as I did, and still had a dozen or so left to mark in the final round. Of course there were TO calls interru[ting the process, not to mention the other details one needs to handle when running an ecvent (thank Ghod for Mark and Narda! Props to them once again!!) No wonder I didn't seem to get to watch many games or spend much time catching uip with people. No wonder I felt pretty exhausted when sorting out the prize-giving.

I think it would be fair to say I was being quite harsh in my paint scoring, husbanding my discretionary points like they were gold coins. However, I also feel I managed to apply this consistently - you were all marked in a similar way.

Venue - unfortunately we're losing this very convenient venue, so any complaints will become irrelevant (light was always a concern - if I have a choice, I will seek a venue with better light). I thought we were on a good wicket there, the bistro/bar and affordable pricing as well as being less than 10 minutes from home made this a perfect spot for me to run a tourny. Being so close meant I was able to actually get to the venue without invoking Miller time....

Being a member also meant I could get a park underground close to the podium as well...

Sad to be leaving them, obviously.

I am keen to look for an inner city location if possible as I understand that's fairly popular especially for travellers who want to get a taste of Sydney nightlife whilst they are here.

Obviously somewhere reasonably adjacent to decent accomodation would be preferable as well.

Prizes - yes we goofed slightly on the default system this year, but that's mostly addressed now (as far as I can manage now). We'll endeavour to do better next year.

What did you guys think of the trophies? I thought they were excellent and anticipate sourcing next year's trophies from Stewart's again. Every major prize category carried a trophy along wioth the top 3 in both fields. Is that too much?

Entry fee: I think some would liked to have seen a few more prizes given out, this would have been easier to manage if I had been running a higher entry fee. Did the $10 saving make a difference to most of you? Or did you not care if it was $50 anyway?

It would definitely have made my life a whole lot easier if charging $50 this year.

And if we have to pay a lot more for the venue next year, how supportive would players be of an even higher entry fee? For example, if in a position where I could offer more prize support, giving stuff to half of you, as well as covering the cost of a more expensive venue, if I charged say $60?

Or is $50 an important limit?

LMK wat you think and what we might change for next year. And what was good that we should keep?

[Starfire]

I don't think that "Pick Your Own Adventure" should be used in a tournament.

The comp scores seemed odd.

With regards to next years entry fee, I'd happily pay $50. $60 might be stretching for those who have to book air fares as well as accomodation.



This post has been edited by Starfire: Jul 27 2010, 12:44 AM

[Nzarra]

Whilst I enjoyed the pick your own, I would be interested to look at how many draws resulted - whilst draws happen a mission that has a higher likelihood of that happening is not necessarily a good thing in the 2nd to last round.

Mission scoring seemed fine. Comp scores seemed ok but with a few anomalies but still a few queries regarding an apparent 'codex ranking' and like lists being quite different marks (i.e and just an example that stuck out to several I talked to - David Ts Guard vs Alistair K's Guard)
No doubt both were hard lists but perhaps some of the subtlety and force mutiplying effects of David's were overlooked.

$50 would be fine I think.

[Ordzmek]

I'm still not sure how I feel about the 'Secret Orders' mission, but my gut tells me that it shouldn't be used in a Tournament setting, and that everybody should play the same mission with the same objectives.

Also, I'd happily pay $50 and would *probably* be okay with $60 but a lot of people who live interstate/don't work full time as I do may struggle with that cost.

[adreal]

i loved the choose your own adventure, and while i chose the wrong primary, i would love to play it at lords next year (if i make it)

The only real problem was all the craters and area terrain that didn't block line of sight. Now abit of that was my fault for running a jetbike heavy list, but several games i felt like i couldn't move, in fact in one game both myself and my opponent killed the same amount of jetbikes, while lots of terrain is great, abit of room to move around is good to

[Ordzmek]

i loved the choose your own adventure, and while i chose the wrong primary, i would love to play it at lords next year (if i make it)

The only real problem was all the craters and area terrain that didn't block line of sight. Now abit of that was my fault for running a jetbike heavy list, but several games i felt like i couldn't move, in fact in one game both myself and my opponent killed the same amount of jetbikes, while lots of terrain is great, abit of room to move around is good to

Just on that note about terrain, I thought some tables had far too much, whilst some tables were severely lacking terrain. Hills are fine and all, but a few more forests and craters on some tables wouldn't go astray.

[Lonestar]

Just on that note about terrain, I thought some tables had far too much, whilst some tables were severely lacking terrain. Hills are fine and all, but a few more forests and craters on some tables wouldn't go astray.

Alex, has to rely apon US, the gaming public and local clubs, for terrain, and so was restricted by terrain placement by who brought what tables, I mean, you don't want all of (say, my terrain) spread over 40 tables! You would want them in a small area so it would be simple to packup (imagine searching that room for a hill you own).

Another way to answer your question, why didn't you bring any terrain


Also, Alex, as a side note, when making an anouncement point your head towards the audiance and not to the back of the stage, eazily half of the people getting prizes, we had no-idea what they were for.

Also, why hadn't you worked out the prizes before the end of gaming? It was almost an hour and a half await after the last game whilst you were sorting that all out.

[Soundwave]

I liked the secret missions thing, keep it up.

I dont think people who were invited to High Lords should have been allowed to complete in the Open. I think you should have stuck to your guns about not giving Hilly the trophy if he won. Other than that, it was pretty good on the whole.

[Vreith]

Just on that note about terrain, I thought some tables had far too much, whilst some tables were severely lacking terrain. Hills are fine and all, but a few more forests and craters on some tables wouldn't go astray.

Agreed


Loved the choose your own objective was awesome, i think many went for Kill points in 1 way or another tho. (i personally did).
the comp scores were generous i think, the absolute cheese getting there deserved score, and the Hard lists getting a bit more points than normal as it's hard, not unbeatable.

The level of painting skill was amazing. although you did mark hard, but fair to the criteria, but on that note, maybe to many bonus points for being a Uber painter and being not so Uber, it draws a large line in the sand of whether you can win the torni or not just via how fantastic of a painter you are (which i think then makes it a small detractor, like saying, paint well or just slap 3 colors on), rather than, painted your army well. (& played of coarse) it felt like, what you lack in paint skill you must make up with a soft list...

That's just my opinion. and of coarse it can be bias, but you asked for feed back

All that Aside, it was a great day, and thankyou all TO's for putting such a great event together! and to all my opponents for giving me some great lolz.

Would be fine with 50$ for new location i think going over that is a bit much, if that means less prize then so be it.

[Devourer]

I like the mission scoring, it was nice and simple. As for secret mission i am not a big fan of it. Me and my opponent chose 90% and kill points, the surest way to ensure that if you obtain your objective your opponent would probably not obtain his.

Mission scoring seemed fine. Comp scores seemed ok but with a few anomalies but still a few queries regarding an apparent 'codex ranking' and like lists being quite different marks (i.e and just an example that stuck out to several I talked to - David Ts Guard vs Alistair K's Guard)
No doubt both were hard lists but perhaps some of the subtlety and force mutiplying effects of David's were overlooked.

I agree with this but trying to score comp from just looking at a list will always be hard. My list was more like a weapon rack than a hammer, and you wont really know what combination of weapons i will pull until you face it so it was hard for comp panel to rate it correctly. I dont really think the panel got it that wrong anyway, i essentially got 2/5. The only person i think who really got badly rated in comp was Simon Rainbow, he got rated lower than me and his army much softer than mine. But hey no system of comp is perfect.

[Starfire]

Alex, you might find some interesting reading re: Lords feedback here.

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/

[Chevynova]

Very happy with my first trip to High Lords Alex - it was a very well run tourny.

Real shame about the venue, but there must be similar clubs (rsl, golf and other sporting) that have similar options. As an interstate traveller, I'm ok with it being in the burbs a bit more (since I did all my "night life" stuff at the venue, as long as there are accomodation options nearby.

Pricing - once air travel, accomm, taxis, airport long term parking and food were added in the extra $10 to $20 doesn't really worry me.

Missions - I don't mind the secret missions but I can make it more of a challenge for your TO skills. Have a random mix of the two missions and give them out to each player just before beginning (after deployment). Extra bit of randomness instead of tailoring a mission to suit yourself then. Have you considered any of the ones from the Battle Missions book (with modifications obviously)?

Terrain - this does need improving. I'd be happy to help but I can't being interstate. The reason Quarter Master has grown so rapidly (and sold out so quickly) is in no small part to Rob's terrain that he uses. It is plentiful and varied. Guess the NSW 40k guys need to start pulling their finger out and get cracking (this'll also help out Krefey for Cancon as well).

And apart from moving the bar closer (right next to my table if possible), I had a great time!

[ÆON]

Wow; that blog is like a poor imitation of Steleks 'Yes the truth hurts' Nerd rage in its puriest form lol!

I like the fact he gloats about beating Julian who was both deathly sick; hungover and a hour late for his game...

[jasonc]

I actually was a bit dissapointed with the choose your own mission; I figured if I could kill 90% of my opponents models for example, I could probably hold the objectives. And that if I could hold more than my opponents objectives, I could probably hold a single one.

I ended up picking kill points and my home objective, as did my opponent, as did everyone else that I spoke to

The mission concept sounds great, but I would change what the secret orders were.

[Soundwave]

Wow; that blog is like a poor imitation of Steleks 'Yes the truth hurts' Nerd rage in its puriest form lol!

I like the fact he gloats about beating Julian who was both deathly sick; hungover and a hour late for his game...

[adreal]

Alex, has to rely apon US, the gaming public and local clubs, for terrain, and so was restricted by terrain placement by who brought what tables, I mean, you don't want all of (say, my terrain) spread over 40 tables! You would want them in a small area so it would be simple to packup (imagine searching that room for a hill you own).

Another way to answer your question, why didn't you bring any terrain

I know this isn't directed at me, but i brought up the terrain issue, and i realise that keeping a groups terrain together is the only way to keep thing from going missing, and to help make the packing up go more smoothly, and it might have just been me with the problem, but there was several dark eldar armies, and one other saim-hann, so the terrain would have been a problem for them.

But yes, if it's possible to bring terrain, we should all pitch in and bring it, i'll be working out how to bring some with me next year

[Loriness]

My believe is that every feed back should be taken seriously, because we want to make it a better event next year. Once you read pass the e-rage, there are important points in there to consider for next year.

Now going through my list of improvements.

Win/Draw/Loss system - a new thing, but I believe it is a good thing. The points are spread properly (in my view) because a minior win -14pts, is equal to a draw with all secondary objectives and bonuses (8+3+3=14).
To be honest, if you think about it, it is the same as Minor/Major/Total (14, 14+3, 14+3+3), nothing substantial has changed from the 3 tier system, just the way it works. Minor = primary, Major = Prim+Sec, Total = Prim+Sec+all bonuses.

Composistion - close but still/never be perfect. I am not a fan of comp, but I play what is given. There are some blips in the score where paper does not match real world. I ran a basic stats of battle/comp comparison and the relationship is near 0 (for High Lords).

Sport - good, but can be improve. The bonus should be 0.5 points to find out the best sport while giving others 17.5/20 if they fulfill the sports critera. Eg. Luke is great, got max sports but no bonus. Does that deserve a 4-5 point gap?
With 0.5 bonus per vote, you have your best sport without penalising the good sports in overall.

Timing - you did great with the resources you have. nothing to complain.

Painting - I know why you did it, but marking mid game is a distraction. Only increase time and/or resource can solve this problem, but your marking critera was published and articulated well. My opinion is reduce your TO discression from 6pt to about 3-4. Nearly 1/5 of the marks is subjective for the best painted might be too much. 10% will allow you to award the best painted army without turning the event into a beauty contest, while still making painting count.

Table - We are in need to some 5th ed table. Table with lots of difficult terrain but minimal-non LOS blocking is pure pain. We need to have an alliance of clubs to share terrains for continual success of 40k tourney as a whole.

Cost - The current level is around $10/game so $50 for LoTs is not unrealistic. $50 for early bird, $55 for on the day? It should work.

Mission - Own mission is not the best for tourney. KISS is important, it does not have to be book mission, but it needs to be clear and simple. For me, the Secret Mission means I just need to wipe out the opponent to ensure I win.

Thats all, at the moment.

[The Dark Angel]

I wouldn't drop the choose your own mission. It is always fun to play as your constantly trying to guess what your opponent has chosen. Also that it allows players to bluff and suprise their opponents, something which is very hard to do in a normal game of 40k. Not knowing exactley what your opponent has to do to win changes the game quite a bit.

In short it is far more tactically challenging than a normal mission and that's what I like in a game.

[MarkC]

Finished going through the first page of the feedback forms.

43% found out about the event from WargamerAU, 20% from Clubs/Friends and only 9% from White Dwarf.

54% of players like 1750 pts games, but 26% would prefer 2000 pts. Averaging the preferred game size resulted in 1778 points so it looks like 1750 pts is still the most suitable.

4/6 players liked 2hrs 30 mins for the games but 1/6 would have liked 3 hours. Of course the trouble with 3 hours is actually fitting in 3 games in one day.

I was interested to see the results for the Win/Loss/Draws scoring system as this was one of the things that was different from past practices:

24 votes for "Good. A win is a win"
32 votes for "Bad. It doesn't reflect the margin of victory"
15 votes for "Who cares? I'm here to roll dice and have fun".


Hopefully I will have the 2nd half of the form summarised by tomorrow. I'm looking forward to how people felt about the different missions.

Regards

Mark C

[MarkC]

Alex, you might find some interesting reading re: Lords feedback here.

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/

A couple of comments on the blog.


Bye games = different points.

I think the poster does not have all the information here. There were no byes in round one, however two players from the open played against High Lords players because two or three players were running late. One player was "promoted" for the round so that a High Lord player from Qld would not have to wait for an hour for their opponent to turn up. A second Open player got a game against the late running High Lords player.

The Open player that got maximum battle points did so because they won their game against the High Lords player who turned up about 1 hour late.

In rounds 2 - 5 exactly one player (from the Open) had a bye in each round. They did not get a game. They got the same battle and sports score as each other. They also each got consolidation in the form of their choice of a resin base pack, to make up for not having a game.

We did have a gumby organised for Sat, but it fell through. We also had two or three "no shows", including one where the players army was lost or stolen on the flight to Sydney.


Painting Scoring.

The blog implies that we deliberately took down the Players Pack or Painting Scoring as part of a cover up. The only changes to the site since before the event were to add the results and to take down some of the pictures from 2008. The Players Pack is still up there.

Traditionally we update the Players Pack after the event to remove the bank account details, but leave the revised pack there until its time to publish the Players Pack for the following year.


Regards

Mark C