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> SA40k Masters 2011, Details, Date CHANGE - Sunday 20th November
Buddha
post Jul 19 2011, 11:34 AM
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I have a few more details for this years Masters event:

- Date is set! It will be Sunday the 20th of November
- Cut off date for qualifying events for 2011 will be Redemption
- We will be sticking with the 'set list, random draw' format of last year. It went very well, and dont see a reason to change it too much.
- We will be expanding to 10 players this year, and revising the codex's played to be the 10 most popular codex's, and an even spread of MEQ and non-MEQ

- Codex's are announced:

Space Marines
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Grey Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Orks
Tyranids
Imperial Guard


Players Pack:


Missions:

Mission 1:
Pitched Battle/Annihilation

Mission 2:
Spearhead/Capture and Control

Mission 3:
Dawn of War/Sieze Ground

Mission 4:
Pitched Battle/Hybrid Mission (5 Objectives worth a point, 5 units selected from the opponents list worth a point; most points earned wins)

Scoring:
Loss - 0 Points
Draw - 10 Points
Win - 20 Points

Bonus points: (same for all 4 games)
Kill the most expensive enemy HQ - 1 Point
Kill the most expensive enemy unit (cannot also be HQ) - 1 Point
Kill at least 75% of the enemies Kill Points - 1 Point
Have at least 50% of your Kill Points alive - 1 Point
Have a any unit in the enemies deployment zone - 1 Point


This gives up to 25 points attainable per game. Emphasis and reward is for winning games primarily. The points for Loss/Draw/Win have been scaled so it makes more focus on a Win Vs a Draw as far as Bonus Points go, i.e: A Win with no Bonus Points is still worth significantly more than a Draw with maximum Bonus Points.

Total score attainable for the tournament: 100 Points

Winner: Highest score wins


Timetable for the day:
0800 - Arrive, orientation of armies
0830 - Round 1 (2hrs 15min for each round)
1045 - Break
1100 - Round 2
1315 - Lunch Break (BBQ provided)
1345 - Round 3
1600 - Break
1615 - Round 4
1830 - Final round ends, presentations and wrap up

This post has been edited by Buddha: Nov 8 2011, 11:06 AM
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Charlie_W
post Jul 19 2011, 02:07 PM
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I'd rather see Nids than Daemons as one of the Xenos inclusions.


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Nzarra
post Jul 19 2011, 02:42 PM
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Army selection is partially based on number of times each codex is used in SA which is tracked (and Demons lead Nids at this stage) - also we need to be able to provide the people that build the lists a reasonable model list from which to build a balanced list. Last year I supplied the Nid models, I have since sold my Nid army as has Tom.



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Charlie_W
post Jul 19 2011, 10:35 PM
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How about what codexes are most commonly used by the Top 10? I have been to every event this year since Dauthus (except Terracon) and have seen Daemons twice in total. I have seen Nids on numerous occasions. There may have been more Daemon armies out there that I didn't notice, but that's probably because they were nowhere near the top tables.

There might have been Daemons at Terracon, I don't know, but given how heavily Comp'd and soft-scored that tournament is I wouldn't be surprised. Daemons might work ok in Comphammer but how many of the Top 10 would be masochistic enough to bring them to the Masters if you had the choice?

I think you would really struggle to produce a Daemons list that is balanced with respect to the other nine Masters armies unless you purposely gimped every other list. Especially with the addition of GK and IG to the event.

Adam Z is currently in the Top 10 and Brian C isn't far outside it, both of them have Nids, I'm sure we could make it happen...

This post has been edited by Charlie_W: Jul 19 2011, 10:35 PM


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Buddha
post Jul 19 2011, 11:44 PM
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To be honest, I am going to put it down to what is simply the more popular Codex, and that will be that.

If you look back at the event last year, the lists were appropriately gimped... and will be again.

We are looking at a 3/5 army in a standard Comp environment as a benchmark for what our lists are to have power wise. Why?

We want to push you outside your comfort zone Charles smile.gif

This is not a 'typical' Masters event.

It worked quite well last year and I think we can make it work again.


Last year, with what we had available to us, we built a Nid list that everyone thought it was the softest list at the event, and, in the hands of Drew who had never played Nids before, it came last.

Daemons came 5th... beating Space Wolves tongue.gif
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Buddha
post Jul 19 2011, 11:46 PM
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Oh also,

We have the lists built and set a few months before the event, due to logistics, and the involvement of interstate judges in creating/comparing the lists.

This basically means that what the top 10 are, or what they are used to is not going to be a factor in deciding what armies to be used... and nor it should!! If I could have it my way, every player should be made to use an army they did not use for the entire year armata_PDT_36.gif ... be thankful we at least leave it up to chance wink.gif
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Charlie_W
post Jul 19 2011, 11:59 PM
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I do realise that all the lists are softer than what I would take seriously, but do you really think you can make a Daemons list that is hard enough to contend against IG/GK/SW without gimping the IG/GK/SW lists to the point of uselessness?

Fair enough on the logistics, but given that the Daemons models are easily available I would prefer to see them as a fall-back option if you can't possibly get Nids, or even Tau, to fill the final Xenos spot.

I think that the format is good and it really puts the emphasis on player skill above other factors... I just struggle to take it seriously with Daemons involved tongue.gif


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Harvey Birdman
post Jul 20 2011, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE(Charlie_W @ Jul 19 2011, 02:07 PM) *

I'd rather see Nids than Daemons as one of the Xenos inclusions.

(Daemons aren't Xenos.)
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Harvey Birdman
post Jul 20 2011, 12:26 AM
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Also, as Tom may not realise (noob) Daemons struggle with 14 Falcons 86% of the time.
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Buddha
post Jul 20 2011, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE(Harvey Birdman @ Jul 20 2011, 12:26 AM) *

Also, as Tom may not realise (noob) Daemons struggle with 14 Falcons 86% of the time.


Casper you are a tard.

By Xenos I also meant in general non-MEQ.
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neil
post Jul 20 2011, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE(Charlie_W @ Jul 19 2011, 10:05 PM) *

How about what codexes are most commonly used by the Top 10? I have been to every event this year since Dauthus (except Terracon) and have seen Daemons twice in total. I have seen Nids on numerous occasions. There may have been more Daemon armies out there that I didn't notice, but that's probably because they were nowhere near the top tables.


Well, Daemons got second at Dauthus..

I've used Tau at the last few events and CJ can't fly over for every tournament, so we haven't seen as much of them this year. They've had very solid showings previously though. 4th and 6th place at Mech last year, for example.


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Nzarra
post Jul 20 2011, 11:13 AM
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Yep and I got 2nd at Demonicon with Demons (and mono to boot) and 12th at Dauthus (out of 38 so hardly down the bottom - ahead of 2 of the 3 Nid armies there and ahead of all 6 of the IG (2 of which I played and beat).

Not to mention they won a little interstate event called Arcanacon.

Since the release of GK codex less seen but at several major interestate comped event where they have showed they have finished well (i.e QM2 6/49 - I was highest GK player at 7th - there was 8 GK armies and 6 IG and the demons finaihsed ahead of all)

Incidently the 2 Nid lists - 39th and 49th

Feel free to not take demons seriously whenever you like biggrin.gif

Theres not alot between 7th and 13th most popular anyway at present - I am happy to leave it to fate - worked fine last year - if its not broke don't fix it !

on numbers played Necrons are only one appearance from bumping out of 10 most popular Eldar !!

maybe I should take Necrons to another event huh.gif

oh - and if you did look at codexes used by top ten I think deamons would still get a look in - Neil, Baney and myself all use demons (not sure if Nathan has this qualifying period though)

Adam is the only one thats used nids.

This post has been edited by Nzarra: Jul 20 2011, 11:21 AM


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Charlie_W
post Jul 20 2011, 11:22 AM
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A crappy 4th Ed codex won Heresy, it doesn't mean they are good. And everyone knows Victorians are lambs to the slaughter biggrin.gif

Reading back I realise that I don't make the most cogent arguments at midnight after starting work at 5 AM sad.gif This is what I was trying to say...

The SA Masters format is fundamentally based on levelling the playing field by constraining players to lists of roughly equal power level. However, there is no real reason why all the lists have to be equally weak; why not make them all equally strong? The days of Comphammer are thankfully numbered (in SA at least) so shouldn't the Masters aim to reflect the prevalent style of 40k being played in the state?

Daemons are inherently weak. A couple of good results doesn't change that. If Daemons are included in the 10 then all the other lists have to drop down to their level to achieve equality.

Nids and Tau aren't the best books out there but they're significantly stronger than Daemons. A strong Nids or Tau list is on par with a moderate GK/BA/SW/IG list.

What I'm suggesting is that we keep the bar high instead of lowering it just so Daemons can come along and play.

PS: Yes, I am not surprised Eldar at in danger of getting bumped out. However, if you dropped them in favour of Necrons then this event would be a total joke. I don't say that purely out of bias; do you think an outsider looking at our state Masters would really consider it to be a legitimate competitive event if it involved Daemons and Necrons?

PPS: If the Masters is going to be based on army popularity then shouldn't the composition be something like: IG, SW, IG, BA, Orks, SM, Orks, BA, IG, SW...

This post has been edited by Charlie_W: Jul 20 2011, 11:29 AM


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Buddha
post Jul 20 2011, 11:36 AM
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Most strong Codex's are going to have to be toned down, I don't see it as a problem.

Last year we had Daemons, and apart from Nids, I think we balanced all the Nids quite well... this included Space Wolves and BA's.

As long as the armies are balanced, what does it matter what power level they are? Everyone gets given the tools they need, the challenge is to achieve the same result while overcoming the unfamiliar smile.gif
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Charlie_W
post Jul 20 2011, 11:41 AM
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I would prefer to see armies balanced to a high level, rather than balanced to a low level to accommodate a terrible codex. Daemons are the "one who ruin it for everyone else". Nids or Tau are more deserving of the tenth spot.


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Demon
post Jul 20 2011, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE(Charlie_W @ Jul 20 2011, 11:22 AM) *

However, there is no real reason why all the lists have to be equally weak; why not make them all equally strong?


why? why does it matter as long as they are equal?

if someone cant win with a crap list vs another crap list then theyre probably in trouble with their claim to be 'master' anyway

i must have missed the memo on the days of comp being numbered tom did you mail that out?


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neil
post Jul 20 2011, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE(Charlie_W @ Jul 20 2011, 10:52 AM) *

Daemons are inherently weak. A couple of good results doesn't change that. If Daemons are included in the 10 then all the other lists have to drop down to their level to achieve equality.


It's more than a couple of good results. Considering straight battle scores only, I got 4/140 at Terracon 2010, 4/46 at Mech 2010, 4/140 at Arc, 2/38 at Dauthus..

QUOTE
Nids and Tau aren't the best books out there but they're significantly stronger than Daemons. A strong Nids or Tau list is on par with a moderate GK/BA/SW/IG list.


I can't agree with that at all. You're drinking the YTTH kool aid tongue.gif Tau are no good. I have a strong Tau list, close to the strongest possible at 1500. (I've figured out how to eke slightly more out, but we're talking the last 5% here). It can't compete with moderate BA/SW/IG. (it can with GK). Every win with Tau is ground out by the skin of my teeth. Way more luck dependant than Daemons - one bad shooting phase and you lose. There's also very little strategic depth. Get your deployment and target priority right, that's all pretty much.

Meanwhile, the internet at large doesn't understand how to play Daemons. There's one guy on BoLS who knows how to play them, that's about it. EG, Horrors and Daemonettes are the good troops. Fateweaver whilst powerful makes the army even more swingy than it is to begin with thus should be avoided etc.

Of course, I'm biased on this issue. Having Daemons in the pool is all upside for me - most people don't know how to play them (making them a bad draw) whilst I know how to play them extremely well if I draw them.


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Nzarra
post Jul 20 2011, 12:10 PM
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I agree with Neil comments - I am not as convinced as you seem to be Charles that Demons are the worst codex out there (and having been out there for a while am equally entitled to my opinion) - I have played Demons, Nids and Tau (although not Tau in current edition) and in the current environment I would happily take demons of those three.

All I am seeing Charles is a lot of opinion. The results do not seems to back that up (that Tau and Nids are better codexes in comped 5th environment)

Also missed the memo on comp being ended - there will be 11 events contribute to masters rankings - at least 6 have a comp system - thats still over 50% of the events. I am already beginning to regret the change to Mech given some of the discussions so that may even go back next year.

What I do wish had its days numbered was theory hammer.

QUOTE
PS: Yes, I am not surprised Eldar at in danger of getting bumped out. However, if you dropped them in favour of Necrons then this event would be a total joke. I don't say that purely out of bias; do you think an outsider looking at our state Masters would really consider it to be a legitimate competitive event if it involved Daemons and Necrons?


Why would I give a rats what outsiders think ? That said Necrons regualrly place ahead of Tau at events wwhere they both compete, have previously won SA events and major interstate events - so why would they be any more of a joke than Tau ?

All I care is that I have a good day and am challenged - as all that competed in last years event feedback that they were.

If its not serious enough or legitimate enough no one is forcing you to play. People get invited, invites can be declined.

Of course we could limit it to 6 people and everyone play identical no comp SW lists - don't see much enjoyment factor though.

This post has been edited by Nzarra: Jul 20 2011, 12:15 PM


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neil
post Jul 20 2011, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE(Nzarra @ Jul 20 2011, 11:40 AM) *

Of course we could limit it to 6 people and everyone play identical no comp SW lists - don;t see much enjoyment factor though.


I think I'd still enjoy that actually. Did you see the "mirror match" tournament that ran at BoLSCon recently? Everyone got exactly the same list:

Captain Cato Sicarius
Librarian, Terminator Armor (Player chooses 2 powers).
5 Assault Terminators, Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield.
10-man Tactical Squad, Meltagun and Plasmacannon. Sergeant with Powerfist. Rhino with Extra Armor.
10-man Tactical Squad, Flamer and Lascannon. Sergeant with Powerfist. Rhino with Extra Armor.
10-man Scout Squad, Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher. Sergeant with Powerfist.
10-man Assault Squad. Sergeant with Power Weapon.
Predator with Autocannon and Heavy Bolter Sponsons.

(and players brought their own models from home). Sounded like a ton of fun. The list was carefully selected to give plenty of options in play (EG how to use the vet skill from Sicarius).


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Nzarra
post Jul 20 2011, 12:57 PM
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you would neil !!


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