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> 40k 8th Ed Tournament Size, What will it be?
knightish
post Jul 5 2017, 04:07 PM
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Hey Guys

I am fresh back to 40k after a 2 edition hiatus.
Just wondering, as I list build/ model Buy.

Where do we think Tournament size will sit as standard?

It seems to be with Detachments and such, it feel 2k may be a decent point limit, but hey.. im new.... and probs silly.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers
Knightish
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Chaplain_Fortis
post Jul 5 2017, 04:50 PM
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I think we'll see 1500-2000 as standard sizes.


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Krefey
post Jul 25 2017, 03:16 PM
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2000 points is what GW was saying "normal" games would be points wise for the most part and doable in a couple of hours.


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Chaplain_Fortis
post Jul 25 2017, 03:36 PM
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As always 2000 feel just a little bit too much "take everything" and spammy. It's certainly doable but it's a lot of dudes to get together for tournament games to be comfortably sized.


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Mango
post Jul 25 2017, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE(Chaplain_Fortis @ Jul 25 2017, 03:06 PM) *

As always 2000 feel just a little bit too much "take everything" and spammy. It's certainly doable but it's a lot of dudes to get together for tournament games to be comfortably sized.

Agreed.

If you look at GW time/game/points chart I think for tourney play 1250-1750 would seem to be a good range depending on how the TO wants to run the event

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/...-Sizes-copy.jpg

Although the way many people online are laying out terrain for a game (ie very little) maybe 2000 wouldnt be too bad as alpha strikes are wiping out alot of those points on turn 1.

I would hope that a good TO would actually have tables with alot more terrain though to challenge the players smile.gif

This post has been edited by Mango: Jul 25 2017, 04:20 PM
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Krefey
post Jul 25 2017, 04:54 PM
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Vehicles are a lot more expensive in general though, so it depends on how you put together your army on just how "big" it will be.


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Chaplain_Fortis
post Jul 25 2017, 07:26 PM
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How does more terrain = more challenge? Surely it just changes the parameters and what can be done.

Either way this edition has the smallest impact terrain rules of pretty much game I can remember. It's not a huge determining factor. Mostly the reason you put terrain down is because it looks nice.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Jul 25 2017, 07:31 PM
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1750 is actually a points level that allows cetrtain builds to be too mean. At 2000 it means the overall power is a bit more even for a big 2.25hr turn around game....

Stuff dies really fast now. Faster than 7th ed and that is saying something. Movement is not bogged down in templat/blast spacing or minute charge range (random charge rg and only within 1 " has made it >> leave 20" to be sure. )

the game is alot faster and simpler with all units running on the one stat line and transport rules being much simpler.

2000 will be fine and will allow most list cope with most things. At 1500 it is tactical building lists but some armies will have and advantage. at 1000 points some armies will have a big advantage. IE a tourney organiser looking at 1000 or 1500 should look at there list building criteria very carefully because there are some heinous things you can do now the Force orgs are so varied ..... with only keywords for allies. and factions being a bit more broad.

Once codex start dropping it will only get worse. The snippets form the marine one will have them ruling the roost til the others get a proper codex.


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Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
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AUS ranking=briefly No.1. :) ATC2011=QLD team ChampionsATC2012=QLD 5th
Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

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Mango
post Jul 25 2017, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE(Chaplain_Fortis @ Jul 25 2017, 06:56 PM) *

Either way this edition has the smallest impact terrain rules of pretty much game I can remember. It's not a huge determining factor. Mostly the reason you put terrain down is because it looks nice.


You actually make my point for me.

People are playing 8th edition with 7th edition terrain, half of which is ineffective so in general they are playing on shooting galleries hence the noise in many forums about whomever goes first wins.

TOs and people need to look at their 7th ed terrain, throw out half of it which has no 8th edition value and double the remainder to actually provide a tabletop worthy of a competitive battle.

Otherwise its just a shoot off and no good TO wants that.
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Chaplain_Fortis
post Jul 26 2017, 09:52 AM
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I'm not convinced that a shoot off is such a bad thing in this system. What sorts of stuff are you talking about being 8th relevant anyway? Just lots of LOS blockers?


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Jul 26 2017, 02:55 PM
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LOS blocking terrain is the main thing. With stuff getting huger (? lol) the levels need to be looked at carefully by terrain builders of if you have the opportunity to at least build your GW kits in a modular way.

the heights are
50mm (troops)
100mm (vehicles up to preds/chim)
170mm (Vehicle up to Defiler)
300mm (bigger stuff including most flyers)
If you are using GW stuff it is a bit larger again jumping in 75mm levels.... (75mm,150mm 225mm, 300mm?)

It used to be a bit less for these catergories but I have seen a need for all catergies to be a bit higher than they were to account for all the higher vantage point big guns now...

Building certain types of terrain (solid) can actually really make for very tactical games just by playing with the levels >> to vary who gets LOS in different areas of the table.

Area terrain and wall terrain still has an effect but it does less now it is linked mainly to [infantry]. Obviously terrain makers and Toruney organisers might need to be a bit more specific with terrain rules on certain table builds [under the new classifications]. This too make for a more intersting game.

IE bring back the tanktraps imppassible for certain classes, or using the 50% with more classes (rather than less).

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Jul 26 2017, 02:57 PM


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Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
Good Trader +149 .....QLD Masters: 1st/14(Tau), 1st/12(Daemons), 4th/15(Daemons), 1st/16(Orks), 2nd/15? (IG), 6th/22(Eldar).
AUS ranking=briefly No.1. :) ATC2011=QLD team ChampionsATC2012=QLD 5th
Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

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fofjunior
post Jul 26 2017, 04:36 PM
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It is not just terrain though, certain guard builds using scions coming down where they want when they want up to turn 3 also have a huge advantage. Unless you bubble wrap carefully to keep them out of melta range it can be all over red rover.



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Chaplain_Fortis
post Jul 26 2017, 05:35 PM
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The game design is built around alpha strike potency. Adjust expectations accordingly. Stuff will die.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Jul 26 2017, 11:34 PM
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Give up KP's in the KP missions. Just run 3-4 smaller units (can include transports or light vehicles.) these can be used as a perimeter.. the 9" is a large circle. so you dont need many defend a few key units.

If they have a complete drop alpha list you can turtle into a corner or use 1-2 large pieces of terrain + deploys to make a huge perimeter. When against a edge resrves list it only took 1 unit of gretchin and and a truk + the bulk of my list on one side to keep the 9" away within 9" of a board edge units out of my deployment zone and up to 5-9" away fomr the front edges of my deployment zone.


--------------------
Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
Good Trader +149 .....QLD Masters: 1st/14(Tau), 1st/12(Daemons), 4th/15(Daemons), 1st/16(Orks), 2nd/15? (IG), 6th/22(Eldar).
AUS ranking=briefly No.1. :) ATC2011=QLD team ChampionsATC2012=QLD 5th
Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

"I passionately believe that's it's not just what you say that counts, it's also how you say it - that the success of your argument critically depends on your manner of presenting it." Alain de Botton
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Jul 26 2017, 11:38 PM
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the more i play 8th the less i try for 1st turn by deploys. You try for 5-6 in 1750 someone brings 4..... some one else gives up all semblance of a list to get 3 deploys.... you never win. But the flipside is most minimum deploy lists are terrible at tactics, and are often easier to deal with beacause you are able to focus targts and they have no options for movement/ board domination/ or tactical acumen re objectives or key positoin on the table.


--------------------
Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
Good Trader +149 .....QLD Masters: 1st/14(Tau), 1st/12(Daemons), 4th/15(Daemons), 1st/16(Orks), 2nd/15? (IG), 6th/22(Eldar).
AUS ranking=briefly No.1. :) ATC2011=QLD team ChampionsATC2012=QLD 5th
Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

"I passionately believe that's it's not just what you say that counts, it's also how you say it - that the success of your argument critically depends on your manner of presenting it." Alain de Botton
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fofjunior
post Jul 27 2017, 04:50 PM
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He had 4 large units of conscripts, 2 valk's full of vets with melta and drop scions, commisars, mortars, and some sentinels.

I realize I could've gone into a corner and just stayed there until he dropped but I just couldn't be bothered playing tic tac toe for 3 rounds so I tested my list instead - didn't go too well I ended up with 3 scouts left lol.


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Life goals - Lose 15kgs, improve health, spend more quality time with my wife, children and grandchildren. Catch up with friends.
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NICS
post Jul 28 2017, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE(fofjunior @ Jul 27 2017, 04:50 PM) *

He had 4 large units of conscripts, 2 valk's full of vets with melta and drop scions, commisars, mortars, and some sentinels.

I realize I could've gone into a corner and just stayed there until he dropped but I just couldn't be bothered playing tic tac toe for 3 rounds so I tested my list instead - didn't go too well I ended up with 3 scouts left lol.



Terrain was the issue at Warfest. With terrain and screening units you can place your key units in ways to stop units from dropping within 9" of you. Until terrain is fixed we will not have balanced tourneys. Even with the changes to the flyer rules I would happily still take an all flyer list and alpha strike someone straight off the table in most games.
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Chaplain_Fortis
post Jul 29 2017, 12:04 AM
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What needs fixing about terrain? Seems like a full ruleset to me.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Jul 29 2017, 09:30 AM
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terrain cover saves are almost not existant if you want to actually manouvre. In terrain (INFANTRY only) within 1" of an obstacle and the big change to 50% means coversaves are basical for armies the only want ot stand and shoot and pray they kill the enemy before they get to objectives. lol

CF i bet you are playing a shooting list ATM right? relying on killing the enemy before hopefuly moving to 1-2 objectives before the end of the game? .. Or even worse just playing kill them scenraios while you are learning ther rules relying on First blood and kill Warlord to win the games? I cant slide on that one I am currently playing ork so I just run a FF so dont rely on the table at all..

Playing proper mission games more than ever is actually an interesting proposition, but there are still a few wrinkles that need to be ironed out....

Ther first being the 3-5 LOW detachment.... that has to go Straight up.... (perhaps even at least 1 of the basic 6 detachments has to be the core of a list. but that would still be up for debate.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Jul 29 2017, 09:34 AM


--------------------
Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
Good Trader +149 .....QLD Masters: 1st/14(Tau), 1st/12(Daemons), 4th/15(Daemons), 1st/16(Orks), 2nd/15? (IG), 6th/22(Eldar).
AUS ranking=briefly No.1. :) ATC2011=QLD team ChampionsATC2012=QLD 5th
Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

"I passionately believe that's it's not just what you say that counts, it's also how you say it - that the success of your argument critically depends on your manner of presenting it." Alain de Botton
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Chaplain_Fortis
post Jul 29 2017, 09:52 AM
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Lol personal attacks based on army choice? You're weird bhr. I play mostly assault armies atm but I do favour being able to kill the other guys stuff for whatever that's worth. I generally don't care much if rules favour my personal play style or army choice though. Winning a game is very unimportant.

You don't really get coversaves in this edition unless you camp a terrain piece, it's a game design decision. I'm pretty ok with it. Means stuff dies easier.


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