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> 9th Age Observations so far..., My take on the hobby
Jimbo81
post Mar 20 2017, 11:20 AM
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Having limited gaming time due to family commitments associated with having two girls under 4, I haven't played as much hammerz as I would have liked and even far less tournaments - averaging 1.3 / year for the past 3 years. I have struggled keeping up with all the tinkering and changes but as the changes become fewer and farther apart, the scene is settling out. Here are some of my observations designed to generate discussion:

1. Old skool is awesome. The number of 3rd, 4th and 5th ed miniatures (Warhammer's golden age) doing the rounds is impressive. I love seeing the old mini-steam tank, the metal bloodletters with swords, big hat chaos dwarves, etc. I'm doing my part by resurrecting a 5th ed orc and goblin army - models stripped with smart-strip gloop and gernies in to back to factory cleanliness.

2. Magic and warmachines are redundant. This isn't to say that the armies that used to depend on warmachines and magic are doing badly - far from it - but the the impact of shooting and the need for magic has waned. These days you can take a minimum of warmachines (2 bolt throwers) and a fighty hero with a 30pt item of "this is a dispell scroll) with a core unit packing the +2 to dispel banner and you're sufficiently well defended for magic. Magic users cost a lot these days so unless magic is a part of your strategy, you can comfortably leave home without it.

3. The scene has gone online to FB. I know this is not new but I've joined under a fake name (seriously not interested in building a database for facial recognition software and marketing purposes which is all FB really is - info grabbing). FB is an awesome tool for the hobby - buying and selling used mini's, organising tournaments and gaining engagement. Hat's off - it's awesome.

4. Khorne (Wrath) +1 to hit is amazing. You can hit stuff on 2's now.

5. Skaven's plague censer bearers are utterly amazing / best unit I have encountered so far. Don't fight them. Just don't. I'll shoot and avoid that unit. My guys can't go toe to toe with them.

6. Kings of War still seems to be the main rival with some notable champions of warhammer leaving 9th to play KOW - hopefully they shall return - and I'm hoping the release of 2.0 makes the game stable and attractive enough to make it so.

7. The number of alternative miniatures out there is staggering. The nippon empire army coming out now is breathtakingly good and could function as dark elf or empire easily. The avatars of war dwarf stuff is awesome, and while I don;t like a lot of their orc n gobbo rank and file, the mantic pump wagons and chariots are amazing (for marketing reasons they sell the model backwards so the pigs are pushing the chariot instead of pulling it. genius.) Special mention to the russian alternative for their CD models.

Anyway - there isn't much traffic these days on WAU for warhammer fantasy so I thought I'd start something.


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SammyJ
post Mar 21 2017, 07:52 AM
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I'll tackle your last comment first, not much traffic on WAU for 9th/AoS lately.
This is very true, very sad, and I commend you for provoking discussion.

As someone who's been at arms length from the hobby for a short while I can say I'm not tied to either 9th or AoS. Previously was very much tied to WH.

Jim, how're you finding the overall player base in terms of quantity and quality in 9th?

Point 7. Alternate miniatures. This has always been a contentious point for me as someone who enjoys the immersion. Fighting player A, who uses manufacturer B for their Empire army, then next week fighting player C who uses manufacturer D for their Empire army, creates some disconnection in the experience. Looking at a unit model I do very much appreciate knowing what that model is, learning roughly what it does, and not having to ask my opponent each time I play. This is why I've always hated proxys. If they're different, they're different.
I know there have been financial reasons for players doing this. I'm looking at the AoS Grand Alliance Chaos at the moment. The Daemon models are amazing, however $200 for one of them does feel like a kick in the balls.

Point 6, players leaving 9th for KoW. I think this is going to be one of the underlying concerns for anyone putting time in to a 9th army. A community driven product versus business driven (KoW or AoS). How long will it be around? To counter that argument myself though, I guess as the rules are free, if you and your friend have them. Then the game is around as long as you want it to be. Case in point WHFB.

Point 5, no comment.

Point 4. I do like the idea of list building/tuning/min-maxing your armies. I can see 9th retaining this, yet to read too much on AoS if this is still feasible. There are quite a few buff attributes in the Warscrolls. Also delicious Khorne!

Point 3. Guess I need to take that plunge in to FB to keep up to date on gaming in general. Seems most things are moving to FB sad.gif

No real comments on the first two points.

Apologies if this post has some 9th V AoS comparisons in it. I'm not sledging one system over another.


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Demetrius
post Mar 21 2017, 08:36 AM
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9th is a great game, but suffers from lack of interest in Australia. It just never hit the critical mass to really take off, which is a shame.


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QUOTE(RojoDiver @ May 11 2015, 08:44 PM) *

Stop it Roy! You guys are going to break Warhammer. We can't handle these levels of frivolity, fun and far from optimal formats. ETC is meant to be a dour affair.
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Jimbo81
post Mar 21 2017, 09:18 AM
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I don't agree - I get phone calls asking me to come to this or that tournament in Brisbane and numbers are 20-30. That's not bad at all. That's pretty much on par with where 8th ed was. No system has achieved the golden era of 100+ fantasy players in a tournament circa 2006/7/8

Furthermore - it's the only system I am aware of that allows me to continue the WHFB adventure. The other versions are not my kind of thing. KOW doesn't allow me to make cunning lists - it's set unit sizes - BOO! AOS is a skirmish game with a bazillion special rules. Pass. I'd be happy playing 6th, 7th or 8th ed (no elves or DOC) but globally 9th age has emerged as the winner and my gaming group plays it all the time.



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slayerofmen
post Mar 21 2017, 12:27 PM
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I feel the discussion for 9th Age moving forward is not how well its going against X or Y but how to make it as an entity more popular and to grow the player base


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I always thought the Corpse Carts were part of the Von Carsteins commitment to the Imperial Tidy Towns initiative and Keep Sylvannia Beautiful programs. A sort of anti-littering crew for body parts...
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Jimbo81
post Mar 21 2017, 01:10 PM
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Well said.

I think it takes personalities. Gav was the linch-pin in Brisbane. He ran the tournaments, promoted the tournaments, gave advice, set the tables and terrain up. There was a whole team back then that organised hall hire and permanent table storage with Aviation High School. That was a 7th ed generation that sadly we have lost.

Then Petersen seemed to run every tournament that Eddy or Greg wasn't running. You lose those linchpins and the scene is decimated because no one is running tournaments. A lot of them left because 8th ed was a huge change from 7th ed. I found 7th stale as it was the same guys winning all the time - they only played the top tier and you couldn't break in - they were just too good! 8th ed was refreshing and a major change of the guard. A lot of guys started families - myself, Timmy cross, Carwyn. Others moved on to other games. Wilcox has gone to KOW and that's significant because you lose one of the elder statesmen of the hobby to a rival system.

The solution seems to be for the guys who want to play 9th age to work harder in promotion. Start running tournaments with a decent entry fee to prize ratio, get the inter-state guys involved, run a rankings system that guys buy in to and compete for again. The old ranking system made you sit there late at night painting - you knew you wanted to ace the painting scores (3 colour minimum, all models hylighted, based with hylight and flock, a handful or minor conversions and a couple of major ones, does the army have a cohesive colour scheme with painted banners and some freehand. Warhammer dressage but the results were a strong field of staggeringly awesome armies on parade).

It's a cop out but I'm generally too time poor to run a tournament - although I've always wanted to (and the winner is Jimbo). Hat's off to Haig for his efforts. He probably needs an off-sider or two to assist with organisation and we need to run bigger, two day tournaments again. Set a calender and run 2 major events in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Newcastle and get solid interstate support. That would grow the game. Most of the people at the last tournament I was at were new players. There is genuine interest out there.


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kthx
post Mar 21 2017, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE(slayerofmen @ Mar 21 2017, 01:27 PM) *

I feel the discussion for 9th Age moving forward is not how well its going against X or Y but how to make it as an entity more popular and to grow the player base


For me, as someone that's ultimately landed on AOS (and remains KOW curious - it is an odd place to land given that the game is fundamentally a totally different experience), the biggest barriers are:
- constant changes. Until 9th settles, no interest. And I understand that, despite assurances to the contrary, IP is a problem and further changes are coming.

- no fluff. The connection that I would have had is to the old WHFB fluff - I'm sure 9th has some fluff (or it is coming), but I don't have a connection to it. KOW has the same problem, but AOS, actually, its really grown on me. I could keep pretending its the old world, but I could do that in KOW anyway.

The list building thing is overblown - any sufficiently tight rule set is going to force hard choices. List building in AOS or KOW is as fun, for me at least, as WHFB ever was. And I probably spent as much time doing that for WHFB as I did playing or painting.

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Jimbo81
post Mar 21 2017, 03:56 PM
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well I like the list building aspect - you get to run large blocks, hordes or MSU and in that there's greater tactical and customization scope. It also means you can play the models you have to a degree. The other cool part is the magic item combos - there's nothing sweeter than coming up with the mongoose to your mate's snake, an unkillable combat beast or a magical supremo.

This post has been edited by Jimbo81: Mar 21 2017, 04:02 PM


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Mango
post Mar 21 2017, 05:07 PM
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QUOTE(Jimbo81 @ Mar 21 2017, 03:26 PM) *
an unkillable combat beast or a magical supremo.


Really?

Isnt that what killed these games?

Nothing puts me off a game quicker than than hearing those sort of statements.
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slayerofmen
post Mar 21 2017, 06:22 PM
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I can say for a fact right now that unkillable stuff is A LOT harder to make


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I always thought the Corpse Carts were part of the Von Carsteins commitment to the Imperial Tidy Towns initiative and Keep Sylvannia Beautiful programs. A sort of anti-littering crew for body parts...
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Orion_76
post Mar 21 2017, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE(Demetrius @ Mar 21 2017, 08:36 AM) *

9th is a great game, but suffers from lack of interest in Australia. It just never hit the critical mass to really take off, which is a shame.


Its really sad, because its a great game and a continuation of 8th ed. Unfortunately for some reason it never took off in Oz or in NZ, but did take off pretty much everywhere else (most other wargaming countries). Even in the UK, an AoS stronghold, its doing very well in player base terms and events, especially in England. It even eventually took off in the states too, where KoW was the original successor to WHF. It just never did in Oz though... especially in Melbourne (and god knows I tried to get that happening).

At least there is a good player base in Brisbane, and a fair amount in NSW/Canberra to add to interstate events. If the Melbourne scene could join them then we could start to build something more stable, but that scene shattered into many different pieces (AoS, KoW, Malifaux, Xwing, MtG, and T9A) and its almost impossible to glue them back together imo.


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Jimbo81
post Mar 22 2017, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE(Mango @ Mar 21 2017, 05:07 PM) *

Really?

Isnt that what killed these games?

Nothing puts me off a game quicker than than hearing those sort of statements.

That's more a criticism of 7th ed and 8th ed than 9th Age. We all dream of our general smashing face. Not sure what your problem is.


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Demetrius
post Mar 22 2017, 09:13 AM
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I dream of avoiding combat and pew pewing my opponent's bros off the table. Pretty hard to do that in 9th though sad.gif

This post has been edited by Demetrius: Mar 22 2017, 09:13 AM


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QUOTE(RojoDiver @ May 11 2015, 08:44 PM) *

Stop it Roy! You guys are going to break Warhammer. We can't handle these levels of frivolity, fun and far from optimal formats. ETC is meant to be a dour affair.
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Orion_76
post Mar 22 2017, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE(Demetrius @ Mar 22 2017, 09:13 AM) *

I dream of avoiding combat and pew pewing my opponent's bros off the table. Pretty hard to do that in 9th though sad.gif


You obviously havent played the Dwarf Copter spam list then...


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"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."


"Having been on both the giving and receiving end of this lore: if a game of warhammer is in some ways like a game of chess, then a successful death spell feels like the equivalent of throwing a brick at the chess board."
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Jimbo81
post Mar 22 2017, 12:01 PM
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QUOTE(Orion_76 @ Mar 22 2017, 11:18 AM) *

You obviously havent played the Dwarf Copter spam list then...


the most 10:10 draw list ever - corner to corner - both armies outside of 60" of one another. Call it and grab a beer.


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hmjesus
post Mar 22 2017, 12:22 PM
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I love that Dwarfs are the evasion pew pew army of choice instead of Elves.


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Jimbo81
post Mar 22 2017, 02:34 PM
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Dwarves were my 1st army back in 5th ed. I made paper mache gyro-blimps from waterbombs covered in news paper and pva glue - then 4 short wires to some miniature row boats I found. It looked sic! Then I sold the army. Dumbest decision I made that week.

I'm sure Wood elfs can still pew pew avoid just as well as they used to (only without the wood teleport thing that EVERY woody guy would do - oh wait, you're on the other side of the board now in that forest you brought from home......................).

There's probably a way to make M9 gobbos on wolves avoidee enough - if one was so inclined...


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foodmonster1
post Mar 27 2017, 11:04 AM
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great post to make things simple I have worked across the 7 questions Jimbo posted.

QUOTE
1. Old skool is awesome. The number of 3rd, 4th and 5th ed miniatures (Warhammer's golden age) doing the rounds is impressive. I love seeing the old mini-steam tank, the metal bloodletters with swords, big hat chaos dwarves, etc. I'm doing my part by resurrecting a 5th ed orc and goblin army - models stripped with smart-strip gloop and gernies in to back to factory cleanliness.


I love the older models I have a few here and there as a Edition 1 original player - eeek I am old. My favourite are my mummies and old zombie dragons.

QUOTE
2. Magic and warmachines are redundant. This isn't to say that the armies that used to depend on warmachines and magic are doing badly - far from it - but the the impact of shooting and the need for magic has waned. These days you can take a minimum of warmachines (2 bolt throwers) and a fighty hero with a 30pt item of "this is a dispell scroll) with a core unit packing the +2 to dispel banner and you're sufficiently well defended for magic. Magic users cost a lot these days so unless magic is a part of your strategy, you can comfortably leave home without it.


Magic is for sure is not overbearing and now you can run no wizard builds I have seen plenty, proof in the pudding is the stacks of unsold dispel scrolls and the fact the markets are, flooded with them. Machines are still decent dependant on the army dwarf organ guns awesome, cats rock if you get some infantry block lists across the table. In short magic/machines dictate less as intended with 9th age rules building which I think is good. They are still important for some builds and setups just much less so and they clearly don't overbear.

QUOTE
3. The scene has gone online to FB. I know this is not new but I've joined under a fake name (seriously not interested in building a database for facial recognition software and marketing purposes which is all FB really is - info grabbing). FB is an awesome tool for the hobby - buying and selling used mini's, organising tournaments and gaining engagement. Hat's off - it's awesome.


Social media rocks for events and instant communications, much easier to do point to point games. With universal battle 2 out now there is another forum for people to play games where a physical meetup is a problem aka international/interstate. I now have connected to a group of Sydney boys purely via FB and we swap chats/lists etc all good. I would never easily have done that outside WAU or tourneys.

QUOTE
4. Khorne (Wrath) +1 to hit is amazing. You can hit stuff on 2's now.


Played a slannesh list with 2's and 2's now that hurt smile.gif but its limited to a few builds and typically 1 unit in a game.

QUOTE
5. Skaven's plague censer bearers are utterly amazing / best unit I have encountered so far. Don't fight them. Just don't. I'll shoot and avoid that unit. My guys can't go toe to toe with them.


You can beat them in combat but I agree better to shoot them smile.gif, they are nasty but they are expensive and dictate a build depending on how many you opt for in a list.

QUOTE
6. Kings of War still seems to be the main rival with some notable champions of warhammer leaving 9th to play KOW - hopefully they shall return - and I'm hoping the release of 2.0 makes the game stable and attractive enough to make it so.


Lots of gaming options but for a mass army game option is KOW is agreed IMO the closest, I like the game actually but does not have the depth and flex of setup/lists and play I like when compared to 9th. 9th age is still great and the books and rules are settling. People are beginning to print real hardcopy books so its beginning to get to the stage it will lock for a few years soon like Warhammer core editions did (7th/8th etc). That's gonna be a good day for the system.

QUOTE
7. The number of alternative miniatures out there is staggering. The nippon empire army coming out now is breathtakingly good and could function as dark elf or empire easily. The avatars of war dwarf stuff is awesome, and while I don;t like a lot of their orc n gobbo rank and file, the mantic pump wagons and chariots are amazing (for marketing reasons they sell the model backwards so the pigs are pushing the chariot instead of pulling it. genius.) Special mention to the russian alternative for their CD models.


I love perry for my peasant list. Agree many great minis and company's out there. I love the Nippon range also BTW, have my eye on this.

9th for me at least is still great and what will happen long term who knows, I feel several things may occur. Rules will settle, the game is solid and have decent balancing (always work to do here but its much better imo). Potential in the future it "may" get a games co to back it, that's just a assumption/guess on my behalf. I hope that will happen.

Scene wise we have good people it will just take time to build and promote that wont be easy with no 3rd party company backing but lets see. Aus scene is small will it grow, who know, I hope so. More tourneys and one day game days help. Getting new players in is the key and not sure how that can be achieved. Noting in spain there are 500 active players!! and as stated good numbers in other European regions.


my 2 cents Foody




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