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> Playing without formations, Do you feel as I do?
Playing without formations
Would you prefer to skip formations?
Formations? Who needs them. [ 16 ] ** [34.78%]
Formations? Yes please. [ 10 ] ** [21.74%]
Formations? Meh, not worried. [ 14 ] ** [30.43%]
Can I get a chocolate milk formation? [ 6 ] ** [13.04%]
Total Votes: 46
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Burger
post Nov 15 2016, 09:07 AM
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Firstly, I'll get this out. Part of me loved the idea of formations. The idea that I can take a certain group of models in a certain way to give me an advantage over my opponent just tickles something deep, dark and evil within me.

That said, I feel that formations goes against the implicit Social Contract within a game. The Social Contract is why I've given up on online gaming (that and no longer being isolated in Japan, but that's another story) and thrown myself back into table top gaming.

I feel that formations give an unfair advantage over someone playing with CAD or even unbound. Before actively thinking about it, I used the Imperial Fist formation and utterly crushed my opponent. I didn't enjoy it any more than he did as it felt like he had one arm tied behind his back the entire game. I tabled him with about 25% loss of my own forces.

Also I've had the same done to me with my Orks or Crimson Fists wiped out by someone wielding a super-combo formation. It wasn't even a contest, it was more about deploy and pack up my figures. The only time it's been a contest was when both players agreed to use formations ahead of time, but that simply brought us back to a point of playing on an even level, the same as playing CAD + Allies.

My summary is this, if the use of formations makes things overpowered and only even if both players are using them, then why bother? It only ends up being an extra set of super-special rules to remember to use on top of your existing rules.

Thanks for your input friends.


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Da Smas
post Nov 15 2016, 10:12 AM
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I stopped playing 7th due to formations and unbound. It turns it into quite a different game and whilst sure people are allowed to still have fun its not a fun game for me.


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QUOTE(Dice Array @ Dec 8 2013, 05:07 PM) *

you would ten mice should table lengthwise?

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Burger
post Nov 15 2016, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE(Da Smas @ Nov 15 2016, 11:12 AM) *

I stopped playing 7th due to formations and unbound. It turns it into quite a different game and whilst sure people are allowed to still have fun its not a fun game for me.

I understand.
I feel that formations cater towards the Power Gamer who wants any advantage at any cost, but stops the game from being fun for me.
Unbound, done properly, can make the game fun. I have a good friend who can take a proper Death Guard army with unbound that he can't do with CAD. He uses unbound to be fluffy and works (I think) with the intent of the freedom to bring your models as you like.


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fued
post Nov 15 2016, 10:34 AM
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Formations are ok for some armies not for others lol
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Da Smas
post Nov 15 2016, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE(Burger @ Nov 15 2016, 11:30 AM) *

I understand.
I feel that formations cater towards the Power Gamer who wants any advantage at any cost, but stops the game from being fun for me.
Unbound, done properly, can make the game fun. I have a good friend who can take a proper Death Guard army with unbound that he can't do with CAD. He uses unbound to be fluffy and works (I think) with the intent of the freedom to bring your models as you like.


Fair enough but people have been doing fluffy armies within the constraints of focre org for ages. I think for casual pick up games formations and umbound hurt the flow of the game. It shouldnt take 3 codexes a wd article and and 2 dataslates to play 1500pts.

Id have no issue with unbound as a appendix at the back in a " other ways to play" section like 4th had.


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Tip 5: Move your dead of the table quickly, if your someone who carefully packs each model, Infantry Guard is not for you. You must care as much for your model as an Commissar does for men's lives. By Dieing they have failed you and should be removed form your sight as quickly as possible.

QUOTE(Dice Array @ Dec 8 2013, 05:07 PM) *

you would ten mice should table lengthwise?

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Blackhearts Reaver
post Nov 15 2016, 11:05 AM
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The problem with formations is they are sometimes rushed out by different designers/rules developers/accountants? and are seemingly not vetted by some overall Editor. Almost at the level of old Forgeworld Rules or Armylists... lol


Eg we get things like Tau counterstrike cadre or The Eight.... and on the other hand you get Riptidewing or Spacemarine Skyhammer... lol

Some are barely useful/ (why put them in) and others will be Auto includes (in the WAAC players arsenal).

Sometimes i wonder why I do things like this:
IPB Image
and I have a perverse attraction to playing knifey-knifey with big fish in small ponds and making them cry.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Nov 15 2016, 11:47 AM


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Burger
post Nov 15 2016, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Nov 15 2016, 12:05 PM) *

or Spacemarine Skyhammer... lol

Oh Throne, do not get me started on that formation.
That's the "Ok, you win. Would anyone else like a game?" formation.
Or maybe it was deliberately put in by the rules team to act as a flag to know who not to bother with?

QUOTE
I think for casual pick up games formations and unbound hurt the flow of the game.

So true.
If you need the extra rules that formations give just to put both players on an even footing, why bother in the first place?

Though I wish Looted Wagons were in the codex and not a WD exclusive....
sad.gif


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Stumphy
post Nov 15 2016, 12:38 PM
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I suspect many formations are "designed" by the marketing department to ensure "crap" unit X sells more

GW have a nasty habit of each time a new codex comes out they nerf the previous awesome unit that everyone purchased and boost the previous crap unit no one purchased. Units do this but on a larger scale.


Some are pretty good, and give a minor bonus and some fluff enhancements. Others are just pure broken.

Played an apoc game on the weekend, my opponent had a formation for Tc squads, this gave him free razorbacks, except he had ten squads, so 10 additional vehicles, about 500 points worth for free. Now in Apoc it was not a massive deal, but 500 points extra is 500 points extra.

The massive Admech formation and things like the Wraith Knight one that gives Dreamwalk are utter insanity and break the game.

And someone showed me the Chaos one to create vortexes, its is filthy broken


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Demon
post Nov 15 2016, 12:40 PM
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*whispers* thiiiiiirtykkkkkaaaay *fades into shadows*


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Da Smas
post Nov 15 2016, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE(Demon @ Nov 15 2016, 01:40 PM) *

*whispers* thiiiiiirtykkkkkaaaay *fades into shadows*

No need to hide friend thats where allot of people have gone.

Shame we have a dumb psychic phase now.


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Tip 5: Move your dead of the table quickly, if your someone who carefully packs each model, Infantry Guard is not for you. You must care as much for your model as an Commissar does for men's lives. By Dieing they have failed you and should be removed form your sight as quickly as possible.

QUOTE(Dice Array @ Dec 8 2013, 05:07 PM) *

you would ten mice should table lengthwise?

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Orange-Bell
post Nov 15 2016, 03:32 PM
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Formations have stopped me playing 40k regularly. If I do play, then it is just CAD.

Though interestingly Age of Sigmar has something similar, but you have to pay points for them. It wouldn't shock me if 40k adopted that in 8th edition.
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Waaagh!!!
post Nov 15 2016, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE(Da Smas @ Nov 15 2016, 10:12 AM) *

I stopped playing 7th due to formations and unbound. It turns it into quite a different game and whilst sure people are allowed to still have fun its not a fun game for me.


Same. The fact that almost every game I played ended up with me being tabled by turn 3 really put me off 40k.
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rat of vengence
post Nov 15 2016, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE(Burger @ Nov 15 2016, 11:30 AM) *

I understand.
I feel that formations cater towards the Power Gamer who wants any advantage at any cost, but stops the game from being fun for me.


Yup. I used to play tournaments regularly, but I rarely play 40K at all these days. I still love the setting, the models, the game, but the rules have gotten stupid.

What I miss most is the concept of the balanced army, one with strengths and weaknesses. You play to your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses. Allies meant you didn't need a weakness at all, and saw the true rise of the WAAC powergamer. Yes, you could do wonderful fluffy things, and I did, but that's not what you saw at the tournaments...

Bolt Action, Bushido, X-Wing is where I'm at now Fantasy got killed.

RoV


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Turbo_mmx
post Nov 15 2016, 05:47 PM
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Id have no problem with formations if they had a cost attached to them. Just like when they were introduced in Apoc. You had to use certain units and you payed XX points to run the formation.

Them being free is what Breaks it.


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Burger
post Nov 15 2016, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE(Turbo_mmx @ Nov 15 2016, 06:47 PM) *

Them being free is what Breaks it.

Totally

The game mechanic of "Points" is only one way to ensure that players can choose from agreed lists to make the game as fair and balanced as possible. It is the least amount of effort as it is already incorporated into the rules.

Anything else requires discussion and agreement, which slows me from putting my toys on the table.

As for 30K, I started collecting orks and chaos to get out of the constant marine on marine meta I was experiencing previously. I don't want to go down the path of buying new books & warmachines just to end up with the same thing in a different setting.


To me the discussion seems to be boiling down to this
1. Casual gamers prefer an even playing field
2. Mutually having formations is the only way to keep the playing field even
So if you are trying to have an even playing field, why bother adding the confusion?


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Spakka
post Nov 15 2016, 07:07 PM
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I have been 50/50 on it. As others have said, there are some nice fluffy formations that aren't too powerful and are actually quite enjoyable to have in games. On the other hand, some other formations are just disgustingly powerful, especially a lot of the larger "decurion" or "Strike force" style formations, although some smaller ones are pretty OTT as well.

If the larger "Decurion" style formations were still limited to Apocalypse only games, they'd be a lot more reasonable. But in regular 40k, it does change the game a fair bit, and some of them are far, far better than others.


However, the basic CAD is not entirely irrelevant yet. Most of my seriously competitive tournament lists are still just a single CAD, no allies. I've tried lists using the larger formations but more often than not, they just don't do it for me - I've still been winning more games with the single CAD lists than with the formation lists.

One potential downside with formations is that whilst they give you some solid buffs, it does also lock you into taking certain units. Some of them lack flexibility and make it a lot harder to write a balanced list.
A CAD on the other hand gives you a lot more freedom to play around, and obsec on the troops choices is still a rather decent benefit to have.

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QUOTE
(Da Smas @ Nov 15 2016, 11:12 AM) *

I stopped playing 7th due to formations and unbound. It turns it into quite a different game and whilst sure people are allowed to still have fun its not a fun game for me.


I understand.
I feel that formations cater towards the Power Gamer who wants any advantage at any cost, but stops the game from being fun for me.


Yeah, agreed. The game has changed a lot. Ever since 6th ed dropped, I definitely haven't enjoyed the game nearly as much as I used to in 3rd-5th ed days.

With many units getting a fair bit cheaper, the addition of super heavies and formations, it feels like both the 6th and 7th editions have turned 40k into something like a bastard child of the old 40k Apocalypse Expansion and Epic Armageddon, but without retaining a lot of the good and fun aspects of those other games that made them so enjoyable.


QUOTE
I suspect many formations are "designed" by the marketing department to ensure "crap" unit X sells more.

Pretty much sums it up for a large amount of the formations. Also so they can try and sell a lot more of a newer kit too.

This post has been edited by Spakka: Nov 15 2016, 07:09 PM


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Nov 15 2016, 09:35 PM
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yeah 40K upped to apocalypse ideals but kept the 40K complexity and then made it even more complicated with formations, decurions, Psy phase etc.

It uses a bit of Magic/ cards combo overlay to supposedly make the game more fun and add... but it really was complicated enough and the overlay combos only adding exttra basic buffs and not too much unique/interesting it has not added flavour or fun just combo's that were not really needed and added to the time because of the complexity /new phase/ more books needed/ more complex situations that slow gameplay.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Nov 15 2016, 09:35 PM


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Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

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post Nov 15 2016, 11:25 PM
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Agree with the fact the games gotten more complex and this does slow play but in the last tournie I played in I had 4 enjoyable games. The power was limited to community comp and I feel that helped.

It also depends on what type of player you want to be.

I had the opportunity to smash face my 1st game going 1st but decided to go for the has all objectives maelstrom card instead - I knew his death company would the assault me going 2nd but it was funny to pull off and well worth the laughs.

My opponents in game 2 and 3 also played in great spirit and I only regret not having the time to finish. In fact I was having such a great game round 3 that I didn't want it to end.

Round 4 was much the same playing against an old acquaintance except he put 4 models in the fsr corner and reserved everything else. It was hilarious.

So I think formations have a place they just need limitations depending on what they are so they're not abused by power gamers.

In the end you get out of the game what you're prepared to put in.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Nov 16 2016, 02:39 AM
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the problem with the complexity and some sort of Gentlemans agreement goes out the window if you play against strangers. these days 1:2 have been taught "GW smash face" .... but they haven't been taught how to play.... lol


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Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
Good Trader +149 .....QLD Masters: 1st/14(Tau), 1st/12(Daemons), 4th/15(Daemons), 1st/16(Orks), 2nd/15? (IG), 6th/22(Eldar).
AUS ranking=briefly No.1. :) ATC2011=QLD team ChampionsATC2012=QLD 5th
Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

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post Nov 16 2016, 06:54 AM
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I love playing with formations. I think that on the whole they've done excellent things for the game.


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