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> Squad Sizes, What works?
The Nothas
post Oct 25 2017, 07:35 PM
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I'm playing with some lists for my first games of 8th. In the past min-maxing and max-minning have been things.

What's the thinking about squad sizes? I get the sense that everything dies nasty deaths in this ed. and cool stuff is a big point sink. Do you max out for resilience or do you keep them smaller so a lost unit doesn't affect the whole plan too much or suck a bunch of points out of the list? What's the impact of the new morale rules?

I'm thinking marines specifically, but I'd be keen to hear people's views on other codices too.



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Blackhearts Reaver
post Oct 25 2017, 09:28 PM
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In other codex (nid, ork, Daemon even AM, etc) larger squad sizes are sometimes rewarded with a buff. EG 20+Hormaguants = reroll wounds of 1. so larger squad sizes are beneficial.

With marines 5-10 is pretty limited. Not alot of bonus rules for squad size.

generally I would put the brutal firepower into 2 categories for 8th ed.
1) the firepower that wipes stuff out.
2) the left over firepower that sprays targets after the primary (1-3) targets are dead.

generally you wont have this across the lines firefights with many units engaging each other in drawn out affairs of whittling down a few models a turn until one unit wins the fight by more lucky dice.

Most tend to destroy something and then move onto the next unit.
8th Firepower and lack of basic mitigation IE>
- cover bonus means much less now (even moreso if have a bad save to start with) and is harder to get.
-to hit esp in h2h Fight is more reliable so damage output is much more reliable (generally 2+ or 3+ is fairly easy to get often with reroll 1's or full rerolls.).
- wounding is a little worse with the half=2+ less 3+ equal =4+ more 5+ double 6+ but it too has ways of making it more reliable with +1's or reroll 1's etc.


I find minimum squads for basics can work. but for things like minimum devastator squads you might want to add 1-3 casualties to pad your minimum for the hv weapons. A leftover/suplimentary/backup spray in 8th can still kill 2-4 marines. so can take a big bite out of your points expenditure/useful guns for next turn if they have it and your dev's are only on next turns hit list.

As you say i would be having back up plans for killing each unit type eg
-horde T3-4 with sv5+ , (bolters/stormbolters/flamers/CCW)
-MeQ T4-5 sv3+, (Bolters/HB's/ Autocanons/ Plasma/grav).
-MC/vehcile/MC character T6-7 sv3+, (Plasma,ML/ Las/ grav h2h that does-2 or -3 with more than 1 damage).
-Termie/landraider T4-8 with 2+.... (plasma/ las /melta/ h2h that does -3 or better with 2 or 3 or 1d6 damage)

Another interesting aside is alot of the 2+ save stuff that you need to kill often has a 5++ save and so after you get to a -3 alot of the -4 or -5 guns are wasted "value".

If people see you have only one thing for a solution for one of those categories and they have a lot in that category they will kill it out turn 1-2 and then your game gets exponentially harder.

I would say the meta is heading to hv saves (2+, 3+) and more armoured vehicles. the High T and many wounds of vehicles (as well as increased firepower from tw weapons=2 weapons + all weapons shoot ) has made them easily worth the pt cost increase (generally). The game designers have done reasonably well balancing out the cost vs usefulness of vehicles. As a tool they are extremely useful as a tarpits/blockers/absorbers (vs mass horde/chaff units) and require less things to move around.

So lists firepower/h2h has to be skewed a little to the heavier end > more AP -2 -5, and multiple damage while still running enough mass fire to cope in the odd game.

Unit sizes still comes down to usefulness to an entire list. I have used MSU lists and used list with multiple maxed sized units. I would say as long as you are satisfying weapon selections and are comfortable in your lists you can use either. MSU means you will probably have to be more aggressive toward the enemy vs more chaff allows for little more playing to tactics and objectives and dictating board position.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Oct 25 2017, 09:56 PM


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GGMatazas
post Oct 30 2017, 12:35 AM
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Keep in mind that smaller squad sizes is better for morale. For example if 4x5 man units lose 3 casualties each, then each squad is taking a morale check at +3. If their leadership is 9 its impossible for each individual squad to take extra wounds. If that was a single 20 man squad that took 12 casualties, they're taking a single morale check at +12 meaning they lose an additional 4-9 models.

EDIT: Smaller units also mean you can take more detachments overall, netting you more CP. The drawback to this is unless you're taking a heap of transports you're probably going second which can be horrendously painful in this edition.

This post has been edited by GGMatazas: Oct 30 2017, 12:44 AM


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Oct 30 2017, 09:36 AM
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I disagree with the above statement.

No one i know kills 3 marines out of 4 different squads.... 2-3 squad gets wiped and the other takes half damage. In the day an age of split fire and many guns there is very little wastage of firepower.

also Increasing detachments to net 1-2 more CP points is usually not worth it unless you have very cheap (EDIT: cheap is 40-80?pts) HQ options (or you are working a list that needs HQ's for h2h or 6" bubbles of enhancement).

the increase from 7-8 CP to try and get to 10+ CP is usually not worth the HQ taxes. I have found the Inefficiency of points is usually not worth the pay off of 2-3 more CP esp in the 1500-2200pts

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Oct 30 2017, 01:46 PM


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Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
Good Trader +149 .....QLD Masters: 1st/14(Tau), 1st/12(Daemons), 4th/15(Daemons), 1st/16(Orks), 2nd/15? (IG), 6th/22(Eldar).
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Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

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GGMatazas
post Oct 30 2017, 12:44 PM
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Whether 4 5 man squads get weakened by half or 2 5 man squads are fully eliminated does not change the fact that if they were a full 20 man squad they would be losing unnecessary additional casualties to morale.

EDIT: I know normal Space Marines can only hit 10 models, it was just an example of the impact of morale on big units. I agree taking more HQ's for more CP can be taxing, I'm just in the boat of wanting to take more HQ's and maximizing CP as I run a lot of Ultramarines characters.

This post has been edited by GGMatazas: Oct 30 2017, 12:50 PM


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Krefey
post Nov 6 2017, 12:16 PM
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I think it depends on what kind of game you're going to be playing and what you want in your list.

Most units can be killed in a single turn without too much trouble these days. Even something like a 10 man terminator squad.

As it was with the game ages ago, I feel take what you want is the best option. Vehicles are cool, but still drop to a bunch of krak missiles easily enough.

With split fire being a thing, small squads are more vulnerable than large squads as your opponent is more likely to split their fire between targets to maximize the damage they can dish out.


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