battle psykers, Imperial Battle psykers your thoughts Options

[Harvey Birdman]

Do you need LOS to utilise a psychic shooting attack that requires LOS?

I would say yes, you do need line of sight.

Yep. You sure do.
But as per Psychic Choir, olnly one model needs provide that LOS.

The attack made by the unit is a SINGLE P.S.A. - one fire point needed for one psychic shooting attack.

One shot only, made by the unit, focussed through one member.

Nothing in the rules dictates that all members are making a shooting attack - they're not. Only one is.

Agreed, that the Soulstorm reference indicates number of psykers present in the unit, the unit that is utilising the power.

No reference to number of models using power / number not - only squad sized based to alter effects.

One model uses the power - your choice. Power stronger the bigger the unit is.

That said, from a Chimera, that's one Soulstorm + 4 laspistols, if you wanted = 5 models firing.

This post has been edited by Harvey Birdman: Jun 24 2009, 09:33 PM

[rat of vengence]

Nothing in the rules dictates that all members are making a shooting attack - they're not. Only one is.

The strength of the Soulstorm is equal to the number of sanctioned psykers in the unit utilising the power.

Does it say anywhere else in the unit/power rules that it is aimed from only one psyker, or only needs LOS from one? If not I would think it would be treated like any other shooting attack that requires LOS, including the effect of less than half having LOS for cover saves.

But I don't have the Guard 'dex in front of me...

RoV

[Wombats]

But I don't have the Guard 'dex in front of me...

RoV

That is readily apparent

Most of my gaming group have come to the conclusion independently that you can shoot a ten man Psyker squad at full strength with no cover saves conceded and no reduction to to the Strength of the shot.

My brains calculate a 97% probably it will not be me eating my boots when the FAQ comes out.

I hope you naysayers, heretics and knowlessmen are wearing soft-soled shoes

Back on Topic:

Another wonderful thing about Battle Psykers is they are one of the few units in a Valk/Vendy that can fire an Assault 36" weapon. If you're going a flyer heavy force they'll shoot like Russes without slowing you down.

I'm going to have to restrain myself from fielding two.

[Harvey Birdman]

Another wonderful thing about Battle Psykers is they are one of the few units in a Valk/Vendy that can fire an Assault 36" weapon. If you're going a flyer heavy force they'll shoot like Russes without slowing you down.

Yeah...... how many fire points does have a Valk have again?

Would be awesome though!

[TrozOz]

No fire points in a Valk - the best you can hope for is to drop them off on the valks way past. If you want them as mobile weapon platforms the chimera is the only way to go.

[emergeo]

The way it reads to me is that all members of the squad are making a psychic shooting attack, I can't see any other way for them to "utilize" the power. I know that LOS and range are measured from one model and only one shot is fired but that doesn't change it IMO.

I think it's str 5 max in chimera.

This post has been edited by emergeo: Jun 25 2009, 06:41 AM

[justabloke]

*The Strength of the Soulstorm is equal to the number of sanctioned psykers in the unit utilising the power. The AP of the attack is determined randomly each time.

The misperception people claiming it is limited to STR 5 in a Chimera have is in the * bit. I guess they're reading "The Strength of the Soulstorm is equal to the number of sanctioned psykers utilising the power" rather than "The Strength of the Soulstorm is equal to the number of sanctioned psykers in the unit utilising the power." Perhaps it would be clearer if they'd phrased it as ".... in the unit that is utilising the power..."

How can it be misperception when that's exactly what it says?

u⋅ti⋅lize  

–verb to put to use; to make use of; to use.

What would be clearer is if it simply said:

The Strength of the Soulstorm is equal to the number of sanctioned psykers in the unit utilising the power . The AP of the attack is determined randomly each time.

Using the logic that the STR of the attack is dictated by the number of models that can draw LOS are you honestly claiming that if I have 9 psykers in a unit on foot and they are hiding behind a solid 12" tall building and only one of them can draw line of sight that I therefore only have a STR 1 attack? I'd call shennanagins against anyone that tried to pull that line on me!

No, I have never claimed that, Empireguard asked the same thing 11 posts a go. It's clear that you may choose any one model to draw LOS and range from. LOS blocking terrain is not a vehicle with fire points is it?

Ok the general feel for this one is leaning heavily one way, thats cool and even I can see the FAQ going that way as well. I'm pretty sure GW aren't going to crimp one of their shiny (expensive) new unit's style.

I do what to re-address my original points though as they have been a bit obscured in the last few post.

1. It doesn't say anywhere that you pick a single model to make the attack, you draw LOS and range from one.

2. It's not an LOS issue, it's a fire point issue. As far as fire points are concerned when it comes to shooting from a chimera, there are only 5 models able to utilise a shooting attack.

[Harvey Birdman]

Yeah, good points bloke.

Weird situation - in theory, whole unit is contributing to the shot. Does not specify if all models count as shooting, or just one.

5 fire points. 9 models "firing." Only one shooting attack.

The big difference between the 2 schools of thought is simple: Do they all count as shooting if the power is used?

If yes, max 5 from chimera.
If 1, whole squad numbers count.

[Harvey Birdman]

On reflection:

The whole squad is needed to focus a single shooting attack.

Likely, this would mean every model counts as firing a weapon - this is a fair interpretation.

That being the case - I'm now leaning toward max 5 from Chimera.

Unless the majority rule against, and allow the other 4 to shoot laspistols.

[justabloke]

Thanks HB,

The other way I thought to explain it was using fire prisms.

Q. Can a fire prism contribute to modifing the strength of a shot if its stunned?
A. No because it needs to be able to fire in the first place.

Q. Can more then 5 pskers contribute to modifing the strength of a shot out of a chimera?
A. No because they can't fire in the first place through of lack of fire points????

Does this make more sense?

Whole unit is needed for strength 9, fire points stops 4 of them from contributing.

[NemoHac]

But I don't have the Guard 'dex in front of me...

That is readily apparent

And yet you didn't answer RoV's question...

Does it say anywhere else in the unit/power rules that it is aimed from only one psyker, or only needs LOS from one?

[Starfire]

Treated as a single psyker for the purposes of using a psychic power. The controlling player may measure range and LOS from any Sanctioned Psyker model when resolving psychic powers.

[neil]

This seems cut and dry.

If only one psyker could see due to LOS blocking terrain it would still be S9. Only one psyker needs to draw LOS. Only one fire point is required. One psyker draws LOS through 1 fire point. There is no such thing as "the number of psykers firing", the unit is utilising the power, you cannot volutarily reduce the strength of the power. Let's show it with brackets.

The Strength of the Soulstorm is equal to [the number of sanctioned psykers] in [the unit utilising the power].

Not

The Strength of the Soulstorm is equal to the [number of sanctioned psykers utilising the power] in [the unit].

(Notice how I had to move words around to make the justabloke interpretation work, at first I thought it was ambiguous but it's not).


All the psykers are a power battery and they channel into the one dude who pops his head out of the chimera/out form behind the building to blast things.

And the battery psykers might be able to fire laspistols, too, but that's more contentious.

[rOBOT]

Neil has it right. I don't think there's any ambiguity at all. LOS from one, and they all contributed, firepoints or not.

This post has been edited by rOBOT: Jun 25 2009, 01:30 PM

[Drasnighta]

So, somehow, being in a Chimera rapidly drop the number of men in the unit from 9 to 5....? Does that mean if I roll a perils of the warp, I don't lose any men, since the Overseer is in the Chimera and thus not present in the unit...?

IMO, and my view, all other 8 Members can be strapped in the back, doing their little DBZ-esque Charge, while one guy - the guy focusing the power of the Choir - lets it loose...

It does state that the power is based off the number of men in the unit - the only way that number changes is via casualties... Only one is needed to determine line of sight, to use the power... Things are a little abstract - same as if there is 9 guys in a unit I'm shooting at, and only one can be seen, the rest are hiding behind a tank - I can kill more than that 1 guy, right...? Sure, the unit gets cover saves, but why not extend the same amount of interpretation...

<rant>

RAW is seriously biting me in the ass at the moment. I mean, Al'Rahem not being able to outflank because he doesn't have Infiltrate or Scout, despite his rule saying he *MUST* outflank...

Now, I now they have their share of problems, but I don't see the same problems being dredged up with RAW on American boards... Perhaps they're just happier letting people do what they want, as they're going to stomp 'em with Lash anyway...?

</rant>

This post has been edited by Drasnighta: Jun 25 2009, 01:44 PM

[neil]

Now, I now they have their share of problems, but I don't see the same problems being dredged up with RAW on American boards...

This very issue on an American board:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts...252.page#748775

I know that one didn't explode, it's sort of random which rules issue will explode on any given board. If you want to explode a thread on Dakka, mention the Valkyrie:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/244075.page

For something that exploded equally on both boards, search for the Deffrolla.

Perhaps they're just happier letting people do what they want, as they're going to stomp 'em with Lash anyway...?

Ooooh boy diggidy I remember the debates when that chestnut arrived. Mostly along the lines of whether you could bunch models up, and whether you could move models less than the distance rolled.

[EmpireGuard]

If you want to explode a thread on Dakka, mention the Valkyrie:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/244075.page

lol that thread is funny that Gwar! it a $*#@.

[Harvey Birdman]

Neil's post shows the difference in interpretation quite well - well done bloke.
Bracketing the sentence shows the two ways it could be read, and explans what other guys were trying to say even clearer.

My guess is the power was never supposed to be too complicated. On foot it's easy. Guys = Strenth. Done.

As the whole Unit is using the power, it makes sense that they all count as firing a weapon. But there's only weapon to fire.

The difficult bit comes from extrapolating that if they all "count" as shooting, then only models than can shoot will...

Which is not really mentioned in the rules at all.

EXAMPLE:
Tactical squad has 1 missile launcher.
Only ML is firing.
The whole squad counts as shooting.
Not every model needs to be able to shoot in order for the ML to fire - only that one model.
From a Rhino firepoint? No problem.

COMPARISON:
Psyker Battle Squad has one shooting attack.
The whole squad counts as shooting.
Not every model needs to be able to shoot in order for the Power to fire - only that one model.
From a Chimera firepoint? No problem.

What was swinging me earlier was that the whole squad "counts as" firing when the one shooting attack is made. As shown in the SM example above, this isn't really a problem.

Simple, elegant solution, no head scratching reqired - probably as they intended it.

This post has been edited by Harvey Birdman: Jun 25 2009, 06:11 PM

[rat of vengence]

Treated as a single psyker for the purposes of using a psychic power. The controlling player may measure range and LOS from any Sanctioned Psyker model when resolving psychic powers.

If this is a rules quote (thank you Starfire and NemoHac ) then I ammend my original opinion. If LOS needs to only come from one, my objection is moot.

RoV

[EmpireGuard]

If this is a rules quote (thank you Starfire and NemoHac ) then I ammend my original opinion. If LOS needs to only come from one, my objection is moot.

RoV

Yes its a quote