2500 Orcs and Gobbos Options

[Occulto]

2500 list for friendly tournament:

Black Orc Warboss
Sword of Swift Slaying
Crown of Command
Enchanted Shield
Wyvern

Orc Great Shaman
Level 4
Obsidian Lodestone

Black Orc Big Boss
Battle Standard Bearer
Armour of Silvered Steel

Night Goblin Big Boss
Great Weapon

Night Goblin Big Boss
Additional Hand Weapon

Night Goblin Shaman
Level 2
Dispel Scroll

Night Goblin Shaman
Level 2
Scroll of Shielding

29 Night Goblins
Full Command
Fanatic

29 Night Goblins
Full Command
Fanatic

20 Night Goblin Archers
Full Command

29 Orcs
Shields
Full Command

19 Black Orcs
Full Command
Shields
Standard of Discipline

10 Boar Boyz
Shields
Spears
Full Command
Big Unz
Banner of Swiftness

Spear Chukka

Spear Chukka

Orc Boar Chariot

Orc Boar Chariot

2500 on the dot. Thoughts?

[nasher]

For a fun tournament it's not to bad, I'd look at the charmed shield and a +4 ward save for the lord on wyvern. I'm thinking this will be needed vs artillery. Also perhaps drop the 2nd level shamens for a few catapults, for basically counter battery and monster suppression duties.
I think goblins work best in units of 40, and give the NG nets.

[nevaenuffbass]

I'm working on a similar style of list. Mine is completely untested (models are still in the post), so take my thoughts with more than the usual grain of salt. I'd also be very interested on how you find the army performs, should you think to post on here or send me a PM after the tournament.

My thoughts
I can see that you have kept, where possible, black orcs as character models, and assume that this is your theme. But, it's worth noting, that the extra points for your warboss to be black orc rather than orc actually gives you no advantage aside from the option of a great weapon or 2 hand weapons.

I really want the wyvern mounted warboss to work. I love the model,a nd I have one in the post. But, I struggle to justify it. Yes, the 18" inspiring presence seems awesome, and so is the speed afforded by the flight - so taht it can reinforce or support combats. But, I fear that the mobility afforded by it will actually keep it away from where the general's presence is needed, which is especially important given the low leadership of gobbos. He is also a prime target for war machines.

I want to include chariots, but see little advantage in orc ones over the cheaper goblin ones. Sure they are fragile, but if the en is shooting at them, something else is staying alive.
Re: war machines - it seems to me you get more for your points with doom divers than spear chukkers.

You have no rare choices?
What will you use to target enemy war machines? Maybe some wolf / spider riders would be useful? Or, given all your night gobbos, a mangler squig?

If you want to keep the wyvern warboss alive a little longer, maybe some alternativge targets for enemy war machines - an arachnok or some trolls?

I'm wondering what you plan to do with the boar boy big uns (they represent black orcs on boars?). You have made them even faster - are they to strike fast, and ahead of the rest of your army, in which case they seem unsupported, or to charge units locked in combat, to win the resolution, in whcih case they prob don't need the swiftness banner. It has been recommended to me that boar boys take gleaming pennant, given their ordinary Ld.

As I said, just thoughts.

[nasher]

Some additional thoughts.

I'm working on a similar style of list. Mine is completely untested (models are still in the post), so take my thoughts with more than the usual grain of salt. I'd also be very interested on how you find the army performs, should you think to post on here or send me a PM after the tournament.

My thoughts
I can see that you have kept, where possible, black orcs as character models, and assume that this is your theme. But, it's worth noting, that the extra points for your warboss to be black orc rather than orc actually gives you no advantage aside from the option of a great weapon or 2 hand weapons.
And the very importent bit about quelling animosity not to fortget

I really want the wyvern mounted warboss to work. I love the model,a nd I have one in the post. But, I struggle to justify it. Yes, the 18" inspiring presence seems awesome, and so is the speed afforded by the flight - so taht it can reinforce or support combats. But, I fear that the mobility afforded by it will actually keep it away from where the general's presence is needed, which is especially important given the low leadership of gobbos. He is also a prime target for war machines.
The trick here is to make him expendable, as you can now take more the one lord why not make him an extra.
IE Orc warboss on wyvern is 275pts
Black orc general 160pts
Total 435pts.
Which depending on the game size still leaves you with points for magic Items. Think in terms of working him into the army, "Make an overall plan" how you are going to support him, ie counter battery vs cannons, does he distract from other importent units being shot at.

I want to include chariots, but see little advantage in orc ones over the cheaper goblin ones. Sure they are fragile, but if the en is shooting at them, something else is staying alive.
Re: war machines - it seems to me you get more for your points with doom divers than spear chukkers.

see above;"Working things into an overall plan" in other words having a large wyvern as target will stop people shooting at the chariots. Take 6 chariots and 3 units of 5-10 boar boyz lead by Orc big bosses and those cannons are going to have a hard time killing everything.

You have no rare choices?
What will you use to target enemy war machines? Maybe some wolf / spider riders would be useful? Or, given all your night gobbos, a mangler squig?
Yup having a multitude of fast threats, "Sir it's a target rich enviroment comming at us" is one way to get on top of your opponent and dictate the game in your favour. fast cav are a prime example of war machine hunting. Don't forget though you can use magic and other warmachine to do the same job., and it's better to have a mixture.

If you want to keep the wyvern warboss alive a little longer, maybe some alternativge targets for enemy war machines - an arachnok or some trolls?
Bingo, trolls also stop cannon balls, so a few in front of the wyvern are gold.

I'm wondering what you plan to do with the boar boy big uns (they represent black orcs on boars?). You have made them even faster - are they to strike fast, and ahead of the rest of your army, in which case they seem unsupported, or to charge units locked in combat, to win the resolution, in whcih case they prob don't need the swiftness banner. It has been recommended to me that boar boys take gleaming pennant, given their ordinary Ld.

Boar boyz just need an Orc big Boss or even a warboss to run with them IMO. The animosity tables have you when you fail 5/6 times charge the nearest enemy. If you take a BO Big boss he kills 1-6 boarboys instead. So consider carfully.

As I said, just thoughts.

[nevaenuffbass]

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Unless I am missing something, quell animosity on a warboss mounted on a wyvern actually does nothing, as he is not in a unit? (It'd be lovely if quell animosity worked on all units within 18" as per inspiring presence, but I don't think it does?)
And the downside of taking a warboss on wyvern and separate general, is that limits your ability to have a lvl 4 magic user (for dispelling), due to points, and even gobbo shamans are expensive at lvl4. Correct me where I am wrong?

This post has been edited by nevaenuffbass: Mar 15 2012, 05:34 PM

[Blade_of_Apollo]

And the downside of taking a warboss on wyvern and separate general, is that limits your ability to have a lvl 4 magic user (for dispelling), due to points, and even gobbo shamans are expensive at lvl4. Correct me where I am wrong?

Absolutely correct! Can't have it all I'm afraid!

[arfa]

In all honesty I have to say that is a very weak list, I cant see anything really struggle to table it. Your characters dont have ward saves, not even the one on the wyvern, your units are relatively small for 8th and lack any punch apart from the black orcs, but even they have the standard of discipline wasted on them (the general cant go into that unit, so why do they need to be Ld9?). Id suggest changes but as Im being brutally honest, I'd be starting from scratch lol.

If I had to go through and say some changes Id say you have too many average units and nothing at the other ends of the scale. Id say take two or three units of fast cav (wolves are my first choice, spiders are fine too though) to divert units and take out enemy warmachines/cheap things that will be drawing out your fanatics etc. On the other end of the scale I'd like to see some trolls, squigs or savage bigunz, but boosting that unit of black orcs up to 25 would suffice. 8th ed is just too bloody, this looks very much like a 7th ed list. In close combat you're still only T4 with a 5+sv with black orcs which is practically nothing, especially when its the big all important unit in the army. Nets are an essential on the night goblins not only because they help the goblin units survive, but all other units in the combat too. You can effectively give any orc unit also in the combat T5 which is nothing to sneeze at. Id drop one of the units of night goblins, bump the other up to 40-odd and drop the command on the bowmen, its not needed on such a small throwaway unit. The points you save from dropping one of the NG units can be applied elsewhere.

As far as characters, as said above you really dont need to be a black orc unless you're utilising quell animosity, its just too expensive an upgrade for ITP and armed to da teef. Id go regular orc on both options to save points. Id then give the wyvern boss a 4+ ward and the charmed shield, his regular save will drop down but it wouldnt mean squat against warmachines anyway, which is going to be your biggest problem. As for the great shaman, why the obsidian lodestone? Magic resistance is next to useless at protecting a unit as it doesnt apply to the ones that do the big damage such as dwellers, pit of shades, final transmutation etc, nor does it help against hex's. Better off getting a 5+ ward on him or something and saving some points. I'd probably drop the lvl2s down to lvl1s as well, six levels is enough and with the free mushroom dice you can cast spells a lot better with fewer dice, considering your lvl4 will be chewing most of them up. The 2nd lvl2 (scroll of shielding) can even be dropped alltogether, I find 5/6 levels of magic about right for how many dice you get in 8th. Ruby ring of ruin could also be a look-in here.

The boars pack a punch sure, but only really on the charge. Rather than +1M (which only adds +1 to the charge after all) I'd opt for the razor standard or warbanner so they can continue to be better in close combat after, but thats just me. I find boars to be overcosted also but in a friendly tournament theyre definitely an okay choice, just keep them within the generals Ld bubble so they dont go running off into the sunset. Finally yeah, you need some rare choices. A doom diver is more effective than two chukkaz as its far more accurate and versatile. I'd love to see some manglers or pump wagons too, but I doubt you'll have the points. Still, 65pts can be spent far worse than on a mangler or pumpy with spiky rollers & outrigger.

So yeah, those are the changes I'd make but even then you're going to wind up with a relatively tame list, as obviously not all of my changes can be applied with the army you're running. Not saying you wont win a game with it or anything, just that if a couple key elements are dealt with you'll struggle. Use your wyvern and boars wisely, support your blocks with the chariots and you should be fine. Sorry if you think what Ive said is harsh btw, Im just saying it how I see it, and as a mod over on Da Paff I've been looking at O&G list for a long long time now lol. Hope I've helped

Arfa

[nasher]

2500 list for friendly tournament:

[arfa]

But even in a friendly tournament as is it's worse than 7th-ed Ogres. You'd be better off putting a kitten on the table and hoping the opponents concede out of sheer adorableness!

Arfa

[nasher]

Really hhmmm
The 4th level shaman is pretty much the game winner in this army. Foot of gork is a real leveler on so many levels . Combined with the two NG shamens he has a large & useful magic phase which is potentially very very powerful. [check out the obsidian loadstone on the great shamen and ask yourself why] The NG get an extra dice to cast and can potentially steal dice as well from the DD pool to add to thier casting pool. Also the spell selection is pretty good and useful.
The NG units if they had nets would be a real pain in the arse tar pit. Even with out they should hold a turn or two vs even the nastiest units. In the end they are what 135pts?? So who cares if they die.
Boar boyz [banner of swiftness to keep up with wyvern]with wyvern make for a extremly nasty combined attack. Call the Waaggh and you'll break most things on the charge IMO.
Boar chariots are potential game winners as they can do what a 120pt chaos chariot does for 85pts.
Spear chukkas can still hit and kill things and entire units of knights can die if hit in the flank.
Black orcs are just plain scary, and move them 5d6 onto someones flank makes them doubly so.
Orcs are a cheap bunker for the BSB and mage, they won't be suffering any animosity, IMO orc arrez boys are what you take for a bunker. I did at the masters with my 2 level 4 shamens and BO BSB.

You have to respect this army, though it may not seem to you a tough prospect. I never underestimate my opponent, IMO it's fatal, more so in 8th ED.

It certainly isn't tooled to the max, it has weaknesses, opponents with cannons or decent artillery can do some nasty things, but they always will anyway so what are you going to lose huh!!. In the end, if played well can smash you good, which unlike 7th ED you couldn't do with such a list, which is what people have to get thier heads around. A lot more works, a lot more builds are viable so watch out.

[Occulto]

Some interesting feedback guys and stuff to consider.

Id suggest changes but as Im being brutally honest, I'd be starting from scratch lol.

I bought the army complete off a mate, so I'm limited at the moment to what I can change.