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dvaston
post May 9 2008, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE(CJBolton @ May 8 2008, 11:36 PM) *

if troop being scoring units wouldn't the other troop like units e.g terminators, assault sqaud, veteran sqauds be scoring units as well? i understand vehicles or monstrous creature not being scoring units.


in other words Chris you are saying all types of "infantry" units count as scoring?

i.e. a Devastator Squad is an "infantry" unit, although they are also Heavy Support.

I suppose we cant really clarify this point until we read the 5th edition book when it comes out.

This post has been edited by dvaston: May 9 2008, 12:35 AM


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dvaston
post May 9 2008, 12:30 AM
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For the type of transport vehicle that has to be chosen for a troops squad and also used as the Supply Vehicle, could you use a Razorback instead of a Rhino?

The reason I ask is because a Razorback can have better armaments (twin link heavy bolters or lascannons) than the Rhino, but also a Razorback can only carry 6 men. Usually in normal games of 40k you might choose a 10 man squad, then split them into 2 combat squads of 5 men each, one of which rides in the razorback, while the other combat squad walks around on foot.

Note: this is my understanding of how Razorbacks can be used with 10 man squads. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


Also, I have another question, what if you took a vehicle which was not actually classified as a "dedicated transport vehicle", but is in fact capable of having passengers ride in it, for example a Land Raider or Land Raider Crusader? Could you use one of those for the troop squad to ride in and thus meet the criteria?

My thinking behind this question is what if someone had a Deathwing army, which can have terminators as troops choices? And terminators cannot fit in a Rhino as a transport vehicle. Thus the only vehicle a terminator could ride in would be a land raider or land raider crusader.


Also a 3rd question, does every infantry squad (I am including all types of infantry here e.g. devastator marines, scouts, etc) in the detachment have to have some form of vehicle which can transport them?

My thinking behind this question is would you get some kind of movement bonus on the Campaign map if you had everyone in the detachment mounted in vehicles? For example are there roads on the Campaign map where detachments can move faster etc?

This post has been edited by dvaston: May 9 2008, 12:32 AM


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CJBolton
post May 9 2008, 08:26 AM
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QUOTE(dvaston @ May 9 2008, 12:30 AM) *
For the type of transport vehicle that has to be chosen for a troops squad and also used as the Supply Vehicle, could you use a Razorback instead of a Rhino?

The reason I ask is because a Razorback can have better armaments (twin link heavy bolters or lascannons) than the Rhino, but also a Razorback can only carry 6 men. Usually in normal games of 40k you might choose a 10 man squad, then split them into 2 combat squads of 5 men each, one of which rides in the razorback, while the other combat squad walks around on foot.

Note: this is my understanding of how Razorbacks can be used with 10 man squads. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


Also, I have another question, what if you took a vehicle which was not actually classified as a "dedicated transport vehicle", but is in fact capable of having passengers ride in it, for example a Land Raider or Land Raider Crusader? Could you use one of those for the troop squad to ride in and thus meet the criteria?

My thinking behind this question is what if someone had a Deathwing army, which can have terminators as troops choices? And terminators cannot fit in a Rhino as a transport vehicle. Thus the only vehicle a terminator could ride in would be a land raider or land raider crusader.


Also a 3rd question, does every infantry squad (I am including all types of infantry here e.g. devastator marines, scouts, etc) in the detachment have to have some form of vehicle which can transport them?

My thinking behind this question is would you get some kind of movement bonus on the Campaign map if you had everyone in the detachment mounted in vehicles? For example are there roads on the Campaign map where detachments can move faster etc?




i only try to get a grasp of the whole troop scoring units thing cause that mean that nids, orks or other armies that have 10+ men in the sqauds are more stronger.



for normal marines , dave you can't split up your squads once you deploy your army.



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Cheexsta
post May 9 2008, 09:42 AM
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QUOTE(CJBolton @ May 8 2008, 11:36 PM) *

if troop being scoring units wouldn't the other troop like units e.g terminators, assault sqaud, veteran sqauds be scoring units as well? i understand vehicles or monstrous creature not being scoring units.

It's been pretty much confirmed that only Infantry squads taken as Troops choices count as scoring.
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Firefox
post May 9 2008, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE(dvaston @ May 8 2008, 11:36 PM) *

Just wondering for Blood Angels, who can have jump infantry assault marines as troops choice, are they ok to just be a squad of 10 men? since their jump packs kind of serve the purpose of a transport vehicle in a way.

Also, just wondering about drop pods.

If you had a squad with a drop pod in a detachment, would that squad get to deepstrike onto the table for every single mission (assuming the drop pod hasnt been destroyed during a previous battle)?

And also would a drop pod count as a "transport vehicle" for the purposes of having the compulsory maxed out troops units each with transport vehicles.

Im not sure how a drop pod would be explained fluff-wise in the campaign game, unless we just say that a drop pod is capable of being launched back up into orbit at the end of each battle (assuming its not destroyed during the battle), and then it just "hovers" over the army detachment it belongs to in a kind of "stationary orbit" while the army detachment moves around the campaign map, and then the drop pod lands again during the next battle.

The reason I ask is because I use drop pods a lot in my army lists, and there are also several other people with drop pods as well.


Good Questions -

Drop Pods can only be used once in the campaign unless you have Valkyries etc. to fly them back to the orbiting ships. Then the troops are on foot unless there are plenty of transports. It is like WYSIWYG but on a larger scale. So if you had enough Chimeras to transport the whole detachment it could travel across a large lake or travel off shore along a coast line. Basilisks however would make nice marine breeding environments. armata_PDT_01.gif

Razorbacks don't have sufficient space for a supply transport, while Land Raiders do. It will be a case by case assessment. Also there is nothing to stop a HS Land Raider being used for a troop transport. Yes a fully "motorised" unit would travel at the speed of the slowest vehicle, around 25 kn per hour, compared to a foot slgging detachment which travels at around 5 km per hour.

Jump packs are only short range ie around 1 km in range so don't qualify for troop transport, ie compared to a Rhino with a range of 120 km per tank.

I am fairly sure that only troop units, what ever they are under the relevant codex, will be scoring under 5th Ed. But we can always adjust the campaign if needed when we see 5th Ed.



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dvaston
post May 9 2008, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE(Firefox @ May 9 2008, 12:37 PM) *

Good Questions -

Drop Pods can only be used once in the campaign unless you have Valkyries etc. to fly them back to the orbiting ships. Then the troops are on foot unless there are plenty of transports. It is like WYSIWYG but on a larger scale. So if you had enough Chimeras to transport the whole detachment it could travel across a large lake or travel off shore along a coast line. Basilisks however would make nice marine breeding environments. armata_PDT_01.gif

Razorbacks don't have sufficient space for a supply transport, while Land Raiders do. It will be a case by case assessment. Also there is nothing to stop a HS Land Raider being used for a troop transport. Yes a fully "motorised" unit would travel at the speed of the slowest vehicle, around 25 kn per hour, compared to a foot slgging detachment which travels at around 5 km per hour.

Jump packs are only short range ie around 1 km in range so don't qualify for troop transport, ie compared to a Rhino with a range of 120 km per tank.

I am fairly sure that only troop units, what ever they are under the relevant codex, will be scoring under 5th Ed. But we can always adjust the campaign if needed when we see 5th Ed.



Ok, I had a glance at the Imperial Armour book, so a Valkrie is around 140 points with armour 11 / 11/ 10?
It talks about a "Heavy Lifting" ability to carry Tarantula sentry guns etc, so I see your point how it would be able to pick up spent drop pods.

Do you have to have 1 Valkryie for each drop pod, or can 1 valkryie perform all the drop pod carrying duties?

Am I allowed to keep the valkryie off the table during battles, and then just have it in the detachment simply for the sake of allowing me to re-use my drop pods in future missions?

Or does every single model in the detachment have to be present on the table during every single mission in the campaign? assuming of course it was not destroyed already in an earlier mission.

Can I use a Proxy model to represent the Valkrie, for example I have a non-gw model wich looks fairly similar.

Im really keen to use my drop pods.

That would be cool to use a land raider for the troop transport, since its a lot more beefy than a rhino.

This post has been edited by dvaston: May 9 2008, 04:27 PM


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Mono
post May 9 2008, 06:10 PM
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marines generally use a thunderhawk transporter for vehicle transportation and for recovering drop pods, valkylries are generally imp guard transports and i don't think that they are vacuum rated so they probably can't recover a drop pod.




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dvaston
post May 9 2008, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE(Mono @ May 9 2008, 06:10 PM) *

marines generally use a thunderhawk transporter for vehicle transportation and for recovering drop pods, valkylries are generally imp guard transports and i don't think that they are vacuum rated so they probably can't recover a drop pod.


ok so insert a thunderhawk into my above questions then.


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Firefox
post May 14 2008, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE(dvaston @ May 9 2008, 03:47 PM) *

Ok, I had a glance at the Imperial Armour book, so a Valkrie is around 140 points with armour 11 / 11/ 10?
It talks about a "Heavy Lifting" ability to carry Tarantula sentry guns etc, so I see your point how it would be able to pick up spent drop pods.

Do you have to have 1 Valkryie for each drop pod, or can 1 valkryie perform all the drop pod carrying duties?

Am I allowed to keep the valkryie off the table during battles, and then just have it in the detachment simply for the sake of allowing me to re-use my drop pods in future missions?

Or does every single model in the detachment have to be present on the table during every single mission in the campaign? assuming of course it was not destroyed already in an earlier mission.

Can I use a Proxy model to represent the Valkrie, for example I have a non-gw model wich looks fairly similar.

Im really keen to use my drop pods.

That would be cool to use a land raider for the troop transport, since its a lot more beefy than a rhino.


Hi Mate,

I am happy for the Drop Pods to be disposable. So if you can field a Valkryie (or equivalent) then you can use the Drop Pods multiple times. Let say the Valkryie must appear on the table in turn 4 in either an active or passive manner, until the end of the game. Either way your opponent gets an opportunity to try and shoot it if he desires. If destroyed it then will come under the resupply conditions of all units. So until it is replaced your troops will be on foot.

Please let me know if this is unclear...


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dvaston
post May 14 2008, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE(Firefox @ May 14 2008, 12:24 PM) *

Hi Mate,

I am happy for the Drop Pods to be disposable. So if you can field a Valkryie (or equivalent) then you can use the Drop Pods multiple times. Let say the Valkryie must appear on the table in turn 4 in either an active or passive manner, until the end of the game. Either way your opponent gets an opportunity to try and shoot it if he desires. If destroyed it then will come under the resupply conditions of all units. So until it is replaced your troops will be on foot.

Please let me know if this is unclear...


ok thanks wayne that makes sense.

But now Im thinking if I need to spend approx 150 points just for the ability to re-use the drop pods, my points might be better spent on other things.

By the way, can a Valkryie / Thunderhawk deepstrike onto the table and disembark infantry? And does it have the "inertial guidance" system like a drop pod? or if a thunderhawk / valkryie scatters onto an enemy squad or impassible terrain does it get automatically destroyed, like with normal deepstriking?

Also just wondering, can other types of Apocolypse flyers be used in the campaign? and if so what are the rules for them? i.e. can they do some kind of bombing run / strafing runs over the table etc


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CJBolton
post May 14 2008, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE(dvaston @ May 14 2008, 05:00 PM) *


ok thanks wayne that makes sense.

But now Im thinking if I need to spend approx 150 points just for the ability to re-use the drop pods, my points might be better spent on other things.

By the way, can a Valkryie / Thunderhawk deepstrike onto the table and disembark infantry? And does it have the "inertial guidance" system like a drop pod? or if a thunderhawk / valkryie scatters onto an enemy squad or impassible terrain does it get automatically destroyed, like with normal deepstriking?

Also just wondering, can other types of Apocolypse flyers be used in the campaign? and if so what are the rules for them? i.e. can they do some kind of bombing run / strafing runs over the table etc




i suggest you read the apoc book, i can lead you the book for a fortnight until you can get your own. it has the general rules for flyers including thunderhawks and the valkryie flyers,i don't know about of the other flyers can be used, i would like to know myself cause i want to use my own flyer.

This post has been edited by CJBolton: May 14 2008, 05:32 PM


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dvaston
post May 15 2008, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE(CJBolton @ May 14 2008, 05:31 PM) *

i suggest you read the apoc book, i can lead you the book for a fortnight until you can get your own. it has the general rules for flyers including thunderhawks and the valkryie flyers,i don't know about of the other flyers can be used, i would like to know myself cause i want to use my own flyer.



That would be __very__ helpful mate smile.gif

Maybe bring it along on the interclub game and we can all have a look as well.

This post has been edited by dvaston: May 15 2008, 01:32 AM


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CJBolton
post May 15 2008, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE(dvaston @ May 15 2008, 01:32 AM) *



That would be __very__ helpful mate smile.gif

Maybe bring it along on the interclub game and we can all have a look as well.




just keep in mind thats its not the forge world version but it still uses the same general rules



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Mono
post May 19 2008, 09:25 PM
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will 4 wave srpents, 2 currently unkillabe fire prisms and a falcon be considered just plain wrong for this campaign?


and how unkillable will the vehicles be in 5th ed?


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post May 20 2008, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE(Mono @ May 19 2008, 09:25 PM) *

will 4 wave srpents, 2 currently unkillabe fire prisms and a falcon be considered just plain wrong for this campaign?
and how unkillable will the vehicles be in 5th ed?


If you can meet the comp requirements and stay within the points you are in business. That is part of the "fun" of the campaign...


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post May 26 2008, 06:11 PM
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Ok, thinking about this again, I'm a little confused about the Supply Convoy transports thing.

By my understanding, if you want to take two detachments (which I most certainly do), then you need to have two transports to resupply your armies. This raises a few questions:

1. Do you have to pay for these transports from your detachment allowance? In other words, do they have to form part of either/both of the armies?

2. Do you have to use one transport from each detachment, or do they both have to be from the same detachment? Or are there no such restrictions? Eg, I want to use World Eaters and (renegade) Imperial Guard, do I have to use a Chimera and a Rhino, or do I have to have two Rhinos or two Chimeras?

3. Are there any situations where we're going to need the transports in the same game as one of the detachments, or will they only be involved in seperate engagements? For example, the only transports I have are two Rhinos and I want to use them as part of my WE army. Would there be any conflict if I wanted to use those models as my Supply Convoy?

Also, an unrelated question: the first post isn't quite clear (there's a typo somewhere, methinks), but do we have to have two HQ choices for each detachment? Does this include things that don't take up an HQ slot but otherwise are treated as HQs (ie generic Greater Daemons and IG Advisors)?

Sorry about all the questions, I'm just curious about how it will all work.

Edit: Just thought of another issue while throwing together my Khorne list. All CSM troop choices have a max number of 20; 20 Berzerkers takes me over 300pts and 20 CSM takes me to exactly 300pts (with no upgrades). Am I forced to forego my (rather disadvantageous as it is) theme and take two squads of 20 CSM? Even 16 Berzerkers takes me over 300pts. Would it be more practical to enforce the old "Favoured" numbers instead? Or just stick to 10-man units like Space Marines?

Somehow, I think some army-specific rules for the Troops restrictions are in order, an arbitrary "2 squads at max size" rule just doesn't seem practical for all armies, IMHO.

This post has been edited by Cheexsta: May 27 2008, 12:17 AM
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dvaston
post May 27 2008, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE(kajh @ May 26 2008, 11:28 PM) *

...
I'll take 'Without Number' on Gaunts to provide the fodder.
...


Im quoting from another thread here - sorry Kajh

Wayne - how will "without number" work in regards to the campaign?

Since units "without number" can basically never die, so how would they work with things like being resupplied etc?


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post May 27 2008, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE(Cheexsta @ May 26 2008, 06:11 PM) *

Ok, thinking about this again, I'm a little confused about the Supply Convoy transports thing.

By my understanding, if you want to take two detachments (which I most certainly do), then you need to have two transports to resupply your armies. This raises a few questions:

1. Do you have to pay for these transports from your detachment allowance? In other words, do they have to form part of either/both of the armies?

2. Do you have to use one transport from each detachment, or do they both have to be from the same detachment? Or are there no such restrictions? Eg, I want to use World Eaters and (renegade) Imperial Guard, do I have to use a Chimera and a Rhino, or do I have to have two Rhinos or two Chimeras?

3. Are there any situations where we're going to need the transports in the same game as one of the detachments, or will they only be involved in seperate engagements? For example, the only transports I have are two Rhinos and I want to use them as part of my WE army. Would there be any conflict if I wanted to use those models as my Supply Convoy?

Also, an unrelated question: the first post isn't quite clear (there's a typo somewhere, methinks), but do we have to have two HQ choices for each detachment? Does this include things that don't take up an HQ slot but otherwise are treated as HQs (ie generic Greater Daemons and IG Advisors)?

Sorry about all the questions, I'm just curious about how it will all work.

Edit: Just thought of another issue while throwing together my Khorne list. All CSM troop choices have a max number of 20; 20 Berzerkers takes me over 300pts and 20 CSM takes me to exactly 300pts (with no upgrades). Am I forced to forego my (rather disadvantageous as it is) theme and take two squads of 20 CSM? Even 16 Berzerkers takes me over 300pts. Would it be more practical to enforce the old "Favoured" numbers instead? Or just stick to 10-man units like Space Marines?

Somehow, I think some army-specific rules for the Troops restrictions are in order, an arbitrary "2 squads at max size" rule just doesn't seem practical for all armies, IMHO.

Hi,

The two supply vehicles/creatures do not impact your overall points. You just need them in case your supply lines get breached and the convey engaged. Hence they could be required in the same game as the detachments. Note they can be any reasonable models ie they don't need to be specific GW kits. For example if you have some old 1/35 scale tamyia trucks/half tracks etc.

The rule to fix the max troops rule is go to 12 in the troop unit if max does not work.

HQ must be a Codex based HQ choice eg Commanders, Chaplin etc. in Space Marines, and whatever evil in sporn in Chaos.

There are no dumb questions, so if in doubt always ask. armata_PDT_01.gif

For units that "are without number" it is simple. Whatever thay finish the game with is the strength plus resupply in the next round. So if they were completely destroyed in turn 5 and came back in 6 6 in full strength and suffered no further casualties then they would start at 100% next game. However if they in turn 6 suffered a blast from an ordanance weapon and were say reduced to 10% then next game they would be 10% plus resupply (say 60%) = 70% for next game.

Regards



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post May 27 2008, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE(Firefox @ May 27 2008, 03:13 PM) *

For units that "are without number" it is simple. Whatever thay finish the game with is the strength plus resupply in the next round. So if they were completely destroyed in turn 5 and came back in 6 6 in full strength and suffered no further casualties then they would start at 100% next game. However if they in turn 6 suffered a blast from an ordanance weapon and were say reduced to 10% then next game they would be 10% plus resupply (say 60%) = 70% for next game.


Is that troop reduction permanent? ie. you'd start the next game with a troop strength of 70% and then that would be the max troop size in the game? Or ... would that troop become 100% again in the second round of that second game in your example?

Thanks!

Cya,
Andrew.


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post May 27 2008, 04:11 PM
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Necrons don't have transport, is that an issue?
Another thing is that imperial guard HQ consists of 1 command platoon which by itself, can be upwards of 500 points. The otherr HQs they get are merely advisors who don't count towardsthe HQ slots. Unless a daemon hunters HQ is added (mmm Grey Knight Terminators) ther is no possible way for an imperial guard army to have 2 HQ slots filled


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