PF or PW Options

[The Fury]

lololololol, not in my experiance. my frequent opponent used to spam a SM char in a bike with artificer armor and turbo bost his way accross the field and charge my daemon prince. dunno if he can turbo boost like that but anyway...
he's charge em, weathering my storm of firepower cause he's got a 2+ inv save, so (in last chaos codex) i'd have a dreadaex(no inv saves) on my MC daemon prince at the ready.

chop chop dead, no saves. /cry for him, he just lost a very expensive char to a big beasty. /laugh in face as his army crumbles without their commander.

[Night_bringer]

I think he was after heapfull info, it all really depends, if you have a I5 SM Indipendent Chracter take a power weapon. but in evry other case where the holder cant be targated....take a PF.

This post has been edited by Night_bringer: Nov 20 2007, 08:44 PM

[BloodlusT]

cool..now i understand the difference and changed most of my men to have PF instead of PW but what about termie assult squads..thunder hammers are like a PF and LC to PW,i got a squad with 4 thunder hammers and 5 LC's.. i picked this mixture cuase of what was said in this fourm and being able to give them furious charge it kinda made sence to give most of the squad with LC and 4 TH for at/mc killing..

[Wobbie]

There is 1 other consideration. A savvy opponent will remove casualties in such a way as to not allow the powerfist to strike. They can't do that to a power weapon. This happens a lot at my club. Particularly in an assult that needed to travel 5-6" to make base to base contact. And with Krack grenades you have a means to kill any walker.

[Occulto]

cool..now i understand the difference and changed most of my men to have PF instead of PW but what about termie assult squads..thunder hammers are like a PF and LC to PW,i got a squad with 4 thunder hammers and 5 LC's.. i picked this mixture cuase of what was said in this fourm and being able to give them furious charge it kinda made sence to give most of the squad with LC and 4 TH for at/mc killing..

That's a good combination. It gives you the flexibility to remove casualties depending on who you're facing. If lightning claws are going to be more useful, you remove the thunder hammers first etc.

[Blackhearts Reaver]

Generally, the PF init nerfing can only occur if they have taken a few casualties, in which case you are winning anyway. They will not be able to do so, usu, after the first pile in....


Krak vs Arm 12 dread ....
1 attack per person, hitting on a 4+ usu, and glancing on a 6- sure it is something.... The math says you need 12 attack just to get a glance..... and 24 attacks to get something useful.... or 72 attacks to kill it... with a squad of 10 guys it is a bit of a gamble..... if the dread has a PF striking at init....

[TinBane]

Or, using binomial distributions:

What are the odds of 10 space marines with krak grenades scoring a glancing hit?
42% of the time they do nothing.
38% of the time they score 1 glancing hit.
16% of the time they score 2 glancing hits.
4% of the time they score 3 glancing hits.

There is bugger all chance of anything better (percentages were rounded to the nearest integer).

Compare that to a powerfist:
42% chance of no glancing hits
42% chance of 1 glancing hit
14% chance of 2 glancing hits
2% chance of 3 glancing hits.

So he's doing about the same as a whole squad BY HIMSELF. Then the other 9 marines with krak grenades attack with nearly the same ability at 10 marines. (46% chance of doing no glancing hits).

[YogoZuno]

There is bugger all chance of anything better

I'm long past trying to perform binomial maths, but I think you'll find a squad equipped with meltabombs to be significantly more effective (most bike and assault squads can get them)...all of which is immaterial, since neither type of grenade can actually hurt any model with a toughness score. The PF STILL wins out in far more case. And if you really want to be sure, try a squad with multiple power fists (termies or vets).

[PsuedoNym]

Easy answer from my perspective. PF in a squad can not be targetted (without an oddball thing like fire supremecy, etc), where as on a character it can.

A St 4 model w/ Fist causes instant death on most things, and against big gribbly bugs, Vehicles, wraithlords, demons, etc, has a far greater chance of inflicting some damage before succumbing.

Striking at the same time with a power wep is still awesome (I was known for running 2 scout vet sarge's with power weps and furious charge in previous BA codex. Worked a treat!), but doesn't carry the same "Wrath of the almighty" feel that might cause that character/carnifex/dreadnought to hold back from plunging into your squad.

So yes. I field fists for the extra killing power, and the fact that it's an all rounder, can deal with mooks, characters, vehicles, or high toughness efficiently.

[TinBane]

Yogo:

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear? That line you quoted was basically saying that there is next to no chance of getting 4+ glancing hits with 10 krak grenades.
The powerfist alone is nearly as good as 10 krak grenades. The powerfist + 9 krak grenades is nearly twice as 'good' as 10 krak grenades.

That assumes hitting on 4s, with 3 attacks. On the charge a powerfist (4 attacks) will perform better than a squad.

0 glancing = 32%
1 glancing = 42%
2 glancing = 21%
3 glancing = 5%
4 glancing = <0.5% (0.39)

In terms of melta-bombs, there is less than 1% chance of 10 meltabombs failing to glance once. The median result would be around 5 glancing(or better) hits. As you pointed out, this means jack against an enemy with toughness though.

And at around 50pts for 10 meltabombs, it's not really worth it imho. That's two powerfists on sergeants/champions.


EDIT:
As for chaos vs imperial terminators, I find it best to have a mixture of chaos termies.
4 chaos termies with power weapons still have a 24% chance of not killing a single enemy terminator.
The odds of 4 termies with power fists doing the same, is around 7%.

This post has been edited by TinBane: Nov 21 2007, 01:41 PM

[neil]

Don't grenades hit walkers on a 6+ unless the walker is immobilised? (At which point it reverts to WS). There's less than a 27% chance of a single glancing hit from a squad of 10 krak grenades. Less than 5% chance of destroying it..

[Occulto]

Less than 5% chance of destroying it..

That's why it's so satisfying when it happens.

[YogoZuno]

...and 5% is still infinitely better than 0%. Also, if you imob it with a hit, your future chances become much better.

Tinbane - sorry, misinterpreted what you were saying. Thought you were looking for something more reliable than krak

[TinBane]

...and 5% is still infinitely better than 0%. Also, if you imob it with a hit, your future chances become much better.

Tinbane - sorry, misinterpreted what you were saying. Thought you were looking for something more reliable than krak

No problem mate. I don't think I explained what I was trying to say particularly well.

[Occulto]

...and 5% is still infinitely better than 0%. Also, if you imob it with a hit, your future chances become much better.

Take DA or BA and you get the best of both worlds. PF on the sgt and kraks on the rest of the squad.

Krak grenades are like horses in WHFB - they always seem to end up doing the real damage.