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> orkfest comp, 5/6 panel members
Earendil the Dark
post Oct 4 2012, 10:25 AM
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Thanks, Adrian. It will be good to catch up with you again. Round 2 (and 3)on me then if you are up for it. It should be a good weekend.

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Blackhearts Reaver
post Oct 4 2012, 10:30 AM
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When I am on a comp panel I score "absolutely" on power.

ie (3squads vespid and 1x2 burstcanon crisis with a skyray) (swooping hawks + guardians+ Shadow weavers) etc gets 40/40. Grey knight all best options, spammed gets down in the 5-10 mark.


Josh advocates "compare the armies that turned up ", missions and terrain etc. I see that style, in theory, as widening the spread of score as it is focussing on the specifics at a tourney. Compared to say the "absolute power" looking at any army that could "possibly" have showed up (but in reality do not).

I just think as a tool of encouragement (for friendlier lists) the spread could be widened by just 15-20 % more (so only say 3-5 more pts/40) esp if you are looking at lists relatively rather than absolutely...

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Oct 4 2012, 10:37 AM


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fester
post Oct 4 2012, 11:20 AM
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Some idea of lists vs comp:

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=142647

This is my list, I got 14 (Matt Davis).


EDIT: linked wrong list first time.

This post has been edited by fester: Oct 4 2012, 11:26 AM
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Blood Angel
post Oct 4 2012, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE(Earendil the Dark @ Oct 4 2012, 10:25 AM) *

Thanks, Adrian. It will be good to catch up with you again. Round 2 (and 3)on me then if you are up for it. It should be a good weekend.


Awesome mate it has been too long and a catch up with refreshment of the best kind is always a bonus. Cheers mate. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Blood Angel: Oct 4 2012, 12:16 PM


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ArchonCryx
post Oct 4 2012, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE(fester @ Oct 4 2012, 12:20 PM) *

Some idea of lists vs comp:

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=142647

This is my list, I got 14 (Matt Davis).
EDIT: linked wrong list first time.


Well, that's only one example, of course. Usually someone always gets lucky with their comp score, it's not easy to avoid when the baseline is pretty much 5/40 and giving 2's will still be almost equivalent to a 1/5 type score...

It's not an easy job to score comp and as I said before, I applaud the guys for making the effort and consulting on the resultant mix of scores. It triggers a lot of debate, but nothing especially earth shattering new in this regard.

I say agan, Kudos to the boys for making the effort and putting it on here for discussion.


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ArchonCryx
post Oct 4 2012, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Oct 4 2012, 11:30 AM) *

When I am on a comp panel I score "absolutely" on power.


I think that's really the best one can hope for. Scoring that power accurately is the rub, also where the minimum score should be set.


QUOTE

I just think as a tool of encouragement (for friendlier lists) the spread could be widened by just 15-20 % more (so only say 3-5 more pts/40) esp if you are looking at lists relatively rather than absolutely...


I agree it sounds like a good aim. Do you think a mathematical solution might be the best approach, or is it something the panel should be discussing, eg drop the scores of the bottom 3-5 by X, boosting the top 3-5 armies by Y, where Y>X and discuss the resultant spread.


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Lords of Terra 2013
Congratulations to Dan Gilmour, High Lord for 2013.


Due to RL time pressures (an exciting new job), I am taking a break from running Lords for at least the 2014 season. Thanks for all your great support over the years and I hope to be back for 2015. Stay tuned for a new look event tba mid winter in Sydney.

"...not scared of losing but prefer to keep humiliation to a minimum." -Trigger Happy
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fester
post Oct 4 2012, 12:44 PM
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ArchonCryx: Someone[EDIT:you lol] asked for list vs comp, and that's mine.

Roughly the same list last year scored 7.
This year its 14.

Interestingly, I actually don't think its too wrong, but I expected much less as a 5e holdover.

This post has been edited by fester: Oct 4 2012, 12:45 PM
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NICS
post Oct 4 2012, 01:14 PM
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Here is my list

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=142525

I got a 15 Nick Standing.

I like that the panel marked it in different ways to get different opinions.
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noidea
post Oct 4 2012, 03:06 PM
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Here is my list


www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=143327

Comp of 23/40, Mark Long

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glynaynsley
post Oct 4 2012, 03:52 PM
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If you want a more even spread across, use logarithms on the scores.



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J.McGowan
post Oct 4 2012, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE(glynaynsley @ Oct 4 2012, 03:52 PM) *

If you want a more even spread across, use logarithms on the scores.

armata_PDT_05.gif dont know if your trolling or serious???


so in what way would logarithms help and how would you implement it into what we are doing with comp?

im all up for change but cant get my head around the implementation???



see glen and I may mark differently but 90% of the time we come to the same score which is handy as a cross reference, seeing im doing mine off the fly and glen uses a scaling formula, I encourage everyone to have a look at their list in glens sheets because it will lay out why you come to the score of what you did


as for rewarding and penalising scores stace are you talking about as individual markers or at the end compare all lists and then put a spread on them??

when only talking about a difference of 15% spread its preety hard to do when you dont know what the other lists are going to be like until you see them all.
and personally wouldnt be happy making a panel marking spread over two days to accomplish triple checking.

as for absolute power, what do you mean by this, how many shots a list does etc etc or absolute power in regards to how the list will compete against all lists in attendance and ontop of that how it will play to missions.

take your list for example, if you went off shots and killing power it will get a high mark, but if you went off its ability to play missions it will be quiet low.

so what power are you refering to?

the reason i mark on what shows up is due to the fact that i dont believe you should penalise a soft list because their is a softer list that could be made somewhere but not at the event.

that would be the same as in horse racing they give the weights to the horses as if the slowest horse is in the race and it is not, its unfair and unneccary.

the reason i only go off what is comming is because that is what the lists are competeing against. so if you have the softest list you get the higher score. and if you have the hardest list, you get the lowest score because the points rewarded and deducted wil help these lists in equal measure.

also to note that i dont give out 10/10 scores because we reject 1-2/10 so 8 is the highest i went this year, could of went 9 but the list will do well enough to not justify a 9 in my books





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Blackhearts Reaver
post Oct 4 2012, 07:04 PM
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Nah.... I just mean the panel might look at the lists at the "query outlying scores" and maybe up the scores for the really soft lists (so in this example the 27 might be increased to say 29-30) and subtract a little more form the really scummy lists at the bottom so the 12-13 end up at 10. The other top-ish and bottom-ish lists all move 1-2 pts or
and the spread become significant enough(20+) for people to actually think about how it is affecting what they bring (if they are seriously having a go at the Overalls).


When the comp score is issued at (Max 20%) and >>>> top score to bottom score it really ends up being only >10% (27-12=15 on a 200 pt scale). Trying to encourage softer lists by (top) players to put out the welcome mat for novices or new players. Most of the top players are just bringing very hard lists scoring 10-14/40 lists and making the (+15 in this case) up in battle over the first 3 rounds, stomping newbs / average player with an average list.



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Run local tourneys, Make terrain. 75,000+ pts...Play 1-3 games a week...(40K,BFG,BB,FoW).
Good Trader +149 .....QLD Masters: 1st/14(Tau), 1st/12(Daemons), 4th/15(Daemons), 1st/16(Orks), 2nd/15? (IG), 6th/22(Eldar).
AUS ranking=briefly No.1. :) ATC2011=QLD team ChampionsATC2012=QLD 5th
Retired from Competitive play sometime early? 2013

Try to be positive and help... not negative and tear things down.

"I passionately believe that's it's not just what you say that counts, it's also how you say it - that the success of your argument critically depends on your manner of presenting it." Alain de Botton
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Earendil the Dark
post Oct 4 2012, 07:11 PM
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I wouldn't worry too much about how you comp at his stage Josh or justifying what you did. Thanks for doing it in the first place.

Hey, I got a 12/40 which means my list with a few others is the hardest there. Do I believe it is? No, probably (definitely) not. But it is so early into 6th that I am just stoked to be playing 5 games against like minded people and at a licensed place at that. It should be great. Bring it on.
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YogoZuno
post Oct 4 2012, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE
But I want to finish on a positve, seriously kudos for doing this and pre-publishing the scores. Brave and goodonyer!

I believe this is the third year we've done panel comp (this is my 4th Orkfest), and I believe I've published the scores ahead of time for each of the panels. It tends to allow the unhappy people to vent before the event. Pretty sure I've done the same for at least one Winter Warfest. (retried panel comp this year - never again)

I'd also like to echo what others have been saying - thanks to each of the panel for giving up precious time to do this, with the only reward (besides a free lunch) being the continuance of comp.

As to the calls for better scaling or bell curves - the problem we are facing is that very few are bringing the softer lists, and I disagree with stretching out the scores. Giving a 30/40 list 40/40 just encourages more questions of 'why did I score x before, but only y now?' I'd rather a list scores somewhat consistently. Changes of editions and codexes interfere with this enough, don't need to make it more complicated.

This post has been edited by YogoZuno: Oct 4 2012, 07:57 PM


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dutch
post Oct 4 2012, 09:27 PM
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Thanks to Mike and all the others who gave up their own free time to rate our army list and give us the comp scores that we got. I am usually one of the ones who will vent and complain about the comp score that I got for my army but not this time. I am happy with what I got for my army and I do see it a bit annoying that people complain and say why didn't I get a higher score and what was wrong with my list. I have seen some of the list that people have linked and I think what you got for comp is pretty much what you should expect for a list like that.

Guys comp helps keep the tournament scene fun and enjoyable for all of us. As I would hate to have to go to a non comp event where I play the same army as that is the best that can be built in the current meta. Orkfest is pretty much the only tournament that I get time to play in now and I really look forward to this event each year as it is a fun and entertaining environment. So yet again thanks Mike for taking the time to run such a wonderful event each year.

Dutch
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SneakyDan
post Oct 4 2012, 10:34 PM
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Attend some non-comp events before passing judgement - Every single one I've attended has had the same variation and spread of armies that a comped event does. Give them a shot.
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dutch
post Oct 4 2012, 11:04 PM
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I don't have the time to attend any other tournament apart from Orktoberfest. I make sure I make this one every year and every year I hear the same complaint about comp and people complaining on what their comp scores was for their army list. If I get to attend a non comp event I might see what it is like, but as I said I dont have the time.
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glynaynsley
post Oct 4 2012, 11:23 PM
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Will work on it Josh, was serious. If I can do it right you can mark comp the same way and then apply the formula.
It will basically spread everyone out over the points up for grabs at a given event. It will punish hard lists and benefit soft lists.

It will be in like a month though so nothing soon.


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J.McGowan
post Oct 5 2012, 02:07 AM
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Ok so its an after app. cool beans lokking forward to see how it goes


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NAW73
post Oct 5 2012, 07:33 AM
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QUOTE(fester @ Oct 4 2012, 11:20 AM) *

Some idea of lists vs comp:

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=142647

This is my list, I got 14 (Matt Davis).
EDIT: linked wrong list first time.

i recieved a 16, ill type my list here seeing as its easy.

10x THSS termies
5x10 Marines, Plasma gun Plasma Cannon naked Sarg
2x2 Attack Bikes, MM
1 Attack Bike, MM
Pedro.

so my vanilla marine footslogger is just 1% less powerfull than a las plas spam Space wolf list (as that is, overall, the difference in points for the weekend between me and fester, i have a 1% handicap.)

if thats what the judges believe then so be it. If a logarithym could be used to spread the scores, at least there would be a bigger margin in the handicaps/boosts of poor/good comp scores, but as yogues said, that might cause issues with list creation.........

at any rate, im looking forward to a weekend at a licensed premesis.

This post has been edited by NAW73: Oct 5 2012, 07:39 AM


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