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> No more invincible conscript blobs :)
Krefey
post Oct 23 2017, 09:29 AM
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Commissars now provide a re-roll to morale rather than limit the number of casualties to 1.


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Demon
post Oct 23 2017, 11:47 AM
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boooo


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Stumphy
post Oct 24 2017, 11:02 AM
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This is not just "no more conscript blobs", it basically changes the entire way IG work

I agree that conscripts where way tough, but this change has mostly made commissars a useless unit and has also significantly changes all IG infantry




LD and saves and directly linked
The less effective your troops are at saving (and thus taking casualties) the more moral will impact you
So a 10 man SM squad has pretty good saves, only loses one or two and then has decent moral to further reduce chance of moral fails

IG have crap saves, IG die, that is what they do, but it never mattered because by paying the commissar tax you lose one additional and then you are ok.

But even with borrowing the LD of a nearby commissar IG usually take sufficient casualties that they will more often than not fail moral. a Reroll often wont help this unless you are very lucky. So basically now IG infantry are just going to die in a stiff breeze, and the reroll is just "take another wound" as a slap across the face.



I think GW have knee jerked on this one and may find IG infantry are now barely playable.

IG can still be tough with their vehicles and other units and small suicide squads of deepstriking special weapons is good, but your standard infantryman is now a liability




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Krefey
post Oct 24 2017, 02:38 PM
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Since the commissar will only be helping those units they are nearby anyway, they are either Ld 8 or 9 thanks to the commissar anyway A re-roll can help in those situations. IG infantry are supposed to die in droves, anyway, so having something that basically makes them the same as the old fearless is pretty rude.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Oct 24 2017, 02:59 PM
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going from ld 4 or 7 to ld 8 or 9 + a reroll will save a 10 man chaff unit from whipe out alot. If a unit has been concentrated on you only have to kill about 7 to then leave it be an be fairly confident it will be dead. (esp if it has a Hv weapon team bringing it to 9 models).

jumpin up to ld9 and a reroll will mean you will probably have to wipe the unit out to get rid of the hv weapon team+ special to be sure. That is still a pretty good bonus for a AM infantyr list that will be relying on redundancy and MSU (if a 10 man unit can be called MSU lol).



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Krefey
post Oct 24 2017, 03:07 PM
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maybe MCU (multiple cheap units)?


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General_Hospital
post Oct 30 2017, 10:24 PM
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Or use draconian discipline and hope you don't lose enough troops to jeopardise the few usueful weapons in a squad.


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casperionx
post Oct 31 2017, 01:01 PM
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I have a sneaking suspicion this was done before the 30 man cap on conscripts was done. I personally believe that either have the 30 man limit and no change to the commissars, or keep the 50 man limit and have the commissars as currently now is.

In the current scene, this is will cause a drastic change to how IG are played no arguments there. Is it a good change? I dont believe so with how everything else is.

It does appear to be a knee jerk reaction.



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Krefey
post Nov 6 2017, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE(casperionx @ Oct 31 2017, 02:01 PM) *

I have a sneaking suspicion this was done before the 30 man cap on conscripts was done. I personally believe that either have the 30 man limit and no change to the commissars, or keep the 50 man limit and have the commissars as currently now is.

In the current scene, this is will cause a drastic change to how IG are played no arguments there. Is it a good change? I dont believe so with how everything else is.

It does appear to be a knee jerk reaction.


What would you suggest the change have been?


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Waaagh!!!
post Nov 6 2017, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE(casperionx @ Oct 31 2017, 01:01 PM) *

I have a sneaking suspicion this was done before the 30 man cap on conscripts was done. I personally believe that either have the 30 man limit and no change to the commissars, or keep the 50 man limit and have the commissars as currently now is.

In the current scene, this is will cause a drastic change to how IG are played no arguments there. Is it a good change? I dont believe so with how everything else is.

It does appear to be a knee jerk reaction.


To be honest, every single IG bat rep I have seen on youtube has been tanks, tanks, tanks and a super heavy. The only IG player we have locally plays tanks. I know the conscript list was talked up A LOT, but I haven't seen anyone actually playing it.

So this really doesn't change anything from what I've seen, as people will continue playing bulk tanks.

This post has been edited by Waaagh!!!: Nov 6 2017, 08:32 AM
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Nov 6 2017, 11:43 AM
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Any list in 8th requires 20-30 cheap wounds for screening purposes.

If the list designer does not have that they probably don't understand 8th ed.

Anyone who runs all tanks will meet a 60 hormagaunt/ ork bikers/ Conscripts/ eldar jetbikes/ harlequins/ helldrakes/ any CSM+ warptime/ Daemons MSU / GSC MSU/ BA Fusion+assault MSU/ etc and be engaged in combat Turn 1 (or at least Turn2). OR Marine Rowboat+lascanon spam etc (eg the template >>> Rerolls everything + rg AT and AC spam after that.

For under 100 pts you can up the resistance/toughness/resiliance of any list to about 40% more lists...

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Nov 6 2017, 11:53 AM


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Krefey
post Nov 6 2017, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Nov 6 2017, 12:43 PM) *

Any list in 8th requires 20-30 cheap wounds for screening purposes.

If the list designer does not have that they probably don't understand 8th ed.

Anyone who runs all tanks will meet a 60 hormagaunt/ ork bikers/ Conscripts/ eldar jetbikes/ harlequins/ helldrakes/ any CSM+ warptime/ Daemons MSU / GSC MSU/ BA Fusion+assault MSU/ etc and be engaged in combat Turn 1 (or at least Turn2). OR Marine Rowboat+lascanon spam etc (eg the template >>> Rerolls everything + rg AT and AC spam after that.

For under 100 pts you can up the resistance/toughness/resiliance of any list to about 40% more lists...


I think you overestimate how much one or two cheap blob units can achieve.

*edit - to clarify I mean a tank heavy guard list. Odds are they'll have punisher tanks to deal with cheap blobs while the rest of the tanks deal with anything else. Since you can fall back from combat to let other tanks shoot stuff, a 1st turn charge will only limit one or two tanks from firing if deployed properly.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Nov 6 2017, 05:40 PM
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Cheap screens are not just for Assault blocking Krefey. There are plenty of wasy to burrow through/ go over/ shoot holes/ etc into assault screens.... Hell, these days with the clarifications you can assault the screen and then pile in and consolidate it the intended targets if you have enough assaulters.


They are about board control and Minimising the 9" deploys that 60%+ of players are now using to get some kind of advantage in "deployment" (read >>> dumb person "alphastrike is the king now right?" ). It can be painful, but you can easily mitigate and do worse to the enemy if you know what you are doing.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Nov 6 2017, 05:41 PM


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ethsar46
post Nov 7 2017, 07:12 AM
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I played against the conscript list, it wasn't fun, we got like 2 turns in because every time he had to do shooting it would take 30 minutes of rolling 200+ dice per unit multiple times. Was less of a game and me watching someone roll a shedload of dice over and over.


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post Nov 7 2017, 07:21 AM
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Pretty hard to mitigate an all tank army when you are playing on planet bowling ball and don't get 1st turn.

8th is still a brutal shooting game.

Unfortunately terrain needs to change with the edition - proper line of sight blocking is required.

As for conscripts, they were popular before the change which in my opinion was needed. Trying to chew through 4 x 50 man blobs just to have the commisar execute 1 man so they stay, then fall back and with orders shoot the crap out of you along with everything else was a little OP.

Plus it was really boring to play against.


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Krefey
post Nov 7 2017, 08:49 AM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Nov 6 2017, 06:40 PM) *

Cheap screens are not just for Assault blocking Krefey. There are plenty of wasy to burrow through/ go over/ shoot holes/ etc into assault screens.... Hell, these days with the clarifications you can assault the screen and then pile in and consolidate it the intended targets if you have enough assaulters.
They are about board control and Minimising the 9" deploys that 60%+ of players are now using to get some kind of advantage in "deployment" (read >>> dumb person "alphastrike is the king now right?" ). It can be painful, but you can easily mitigate and do worse to the enemy if you know what you are doing.


In the context of against a tank list, which is what was being discussed, they don't do much other than be assault blockers.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Nov 7 2017, 02:01 PM
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QUOTE
In the context of against a tank list, which is what was being discussed, they don't do much other than be assault blockers.

Krefey,

if you have a static-ish shooting army pusig 2 cheap blobs out to you maximum deployment zone edges and forcing closes enemy assaulters/meltas/ shorter rg guns (like plasma) another distance further away than the std 9" is a massive advantage. I might allow you 2-3 more shooting phases as you slowly back away.

for about 60-120pts you could effecitively double or triple your firepower (ie not let them assault/shoot you till turn 3 or 4 or even 5) before they start significantly affecting you ability to shoot back....


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Krefey
post Nov 7 2017, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Nov 7 2017, 03:01 PM) *

Krefey,

if you have a static-ish shooting army pusig 2 cheap blobs out to you maximum deployment zone edges and forcing closes enemy assaulters/meltas/ shorter rg guns (like plasma) another distance further away than the std 9" is a massive advantage. I might allow you 2-3 more shooting phases as you slowly back away.

for about 60-120pts you could effecitively double or triple your firepower (ie not let them assault/shoot you till turn 3 or 4 or even 5) before they start significantly affecting you ability to shoot back....


But guard tanks have enough range to not worry about the extra distance to the target that the conscript blobs would be able to put in place. And any weapons that could hurt the Leman Russ tnaks, the tanks would be able to hit with their own weapons anyway. The only real exception is probably the demolisher cannon or any other gun with only a 24" range.

With the rule that allows the tanks to move up to half and fire their turret weapon twice without penalty, they are still able to move around and unload a decent amount of firepower.

Shooting isn't static anymore either. Being able to move and shoot heavy weapons means that an army that used to be static in 7th ed, is potentially more mobile now.


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Nov 8 2017, 12:35 PM
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40K is about LoS and rg now....

A few conscripts in a tank list is about maximising the distance between your tanks and enemy including the deployments that will be 9" away if you let them...

If you were playing conscript blobs vs tanks you would just be move+run and engage and assaulting If the tank army has no screens you will do that by turn 2 on all but 2 of the deployment set ups in Matched play.
the tanks get 2 rounds of shooting and then are tarpitted.


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Krefey
post Nov 8 2017, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Nov 8 2017, 01:35 PM) *

40K is about LoS and rg now....

A few conscripts in a tank list is about maximising the distance between your tanks and enemy including the deployments that will be 9" away if you let them...

If you were playing conscript blobs vs tanks you would just be move+run and engage and assaulting If the tank army has no screens you will do that by turn 2 on all but 2 of the deployment set ups in Matched play.
the tanks get 2 rounds of shooting and then are tarpitted.


Sure. If you have all your tanks bunched up so that one or two conscript blobs can assault you all at once.

As I said, the tanks have the range to punish anything they want, or even to deploy backfield to make use of their own long range weapons.

But based on your reply, I suspect we are talking about different situations. Plus with blobs now being able to get punished by high casualties, you don't even need to wipe the whole unit out now smile.gif


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