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> Battle Report new Dark Eldar 2017 1.0 vs Vanilla Marines
Deb
post Mar 12 2017, 03:55 PM
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I built my list to determine if the new ability for Dark Eldar to add up to 3 Barges of Pleasure to a formation that can take transports was a broke or over powered thing. I thought it was and the battle proved I was correct.

My list taken is below:

Kabals
675 Points – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi Units, 3 Barges of Pleasure, 2 raiders, 2 Venoms [BTS]
325 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
Partisans
250 Points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reaver Units
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
550 points – Wyches – Succubus, 6 Wych Units, 3 Raiders, 3 Barges of Pleasure
Titans and aircraft
500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan
200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings


The list has only 8 activations, and one of those is aircraft. It has 9 War Engines, 6 are attached to formations.

My opponents force

Devastator Detachment 425pts, 4 Devastators, Supreme Commander, Rhinos, Hunter

Terminator Detachment 400pts 4 Terminators, Chaplain

Thunderhawk 200pts

Predator Detachment 300pts Annihilator 4x, Vindicator

Predator Detachment 325pts Annihilator 4x, Hunter

Land Speeder Detachment 200pts, Landspeeder 5x

Land Speeder Detachment 200pts Landspeeder 5x

Scout Detachment 150pts 4 Scouts, Rhinos

Predator Detachment 300pts Annihilator 4x, Vindicator

Warhound Pack 500pts 2 x Warhounds

Here is the set up

IPB Image

Space Marines won every strategy roll, and teleported the terminators in to engage the Tormentor, losing one of their number in the assault, and a second to combat resolution. The Terminators were later destroyed from shooting later in the same turn. They succeeded in taking 2 DC from the Tormentor Titan however.

Throughout the 3 turns the Space Marines had fairly average dice rolls, except a few times they failed to activate or rally formations and he had used his Supreme commanders re-roll already. This only happened to the DE once. My BTS Coterie and Tormentor seemed to be the main formations that were targeted, however the Titan hid and sniped at the enemy, and only move/shoot/moved after the enemy titans and predators near it had activated. I used one of the Vessels of Pain as bait to draw enemy overwatch fire, and bring the Warhounds into assault range for the Tormentor Titan. The SM commander did not fall for this.

I moved the Wyches formation over to the left to support the 2 VOP formations (one of whom died to concentrated enemy fire from the Predators). I moved the Ravager Flotilla near the BTS Coterie, and then had the bike formation shot at by the Thunderhawk gunship who avoided the Tormentors AA range. I intercepted with the Razorwings and between my good rolls and the SM commanders bad rolls he lost the Thawk.

He put a lot of his forces who had longer ranged weaponry on overwatch, and I moved my forced around to pick on those formations with shorter ranges like the land speeders, or relocated to concentrate forces. I tried to get the Warhound titans shields down, and then also reduce the SM commanders activation count down. Over 2 turns using the added fire power from 3 Barges per formation, I slowly destroyed off 2 of the Predator formations, the 2 land speeder formations, the Thunderhawk Gunship, and the Terminators. I had lost a Vessel of Pain, and had some units removed from formations.

This in itself has proved that the DE formations who had Barges added to them, whom I kept in the front line, could absorb enemy fire (rotating the barges with better shields to the front), and then supporting them with other formations for engagements. Strangely engagements did not cause most of the enemies losses. shooting from the Ravagers, Barges of Pleasure, Tormentor Titan, Vessels of Pain and the Razorwings did most of the damage. I used the SM players lack of indirect artillery to my advantage, destroyed his only aircraft, and protected those formations who were vulnerable such as Ravagers and Reaver Jetbikes, by keeping them away from the SM predator and Warhound titan formations.

Normally in a game where DE vs SM, I would not have had the 6 Barges of Pleasure. I would not have been so bold as to tempt enemy overwatch fire like I did, as my force is usually very brittle, and the few War Engines I do have get picked on if I send them out too quickly. I also normally lose the Ravagers and a whole reaver bike formation, and perhaps a vessel of Pain, and half the wyches. This game I lost a single VOP, and some units from 3 other formations.

Here are some photos from the end of turn 3 where I achieved TSNP, T&H and DTF.

Coterie after destroying the last Predator formation. I had planned for them to take the enemy Blitz and BTS next turn.
IPB Image

Reaver Jetbikes holding both objectives in DE half
IPB Image

Tormentor titan holding DE blitz
IPB Image

Wyches and VOP holding both objectives in SM half
IPB Image

BTS Devastators holding Blitz
IPB Image
Scouts
IPB Image

Losses for both sides

IPB Image

IPB Image


My recommendations are to change the DE transport rules to have them replace raiders with Barges of Pleasure with one Barge for every 2 raiders. This will cost a lot of points if you decide to add in extra units as upgrades, as you then have to pay an extra 25 points for additional raiders, before replacing them with Barges at 100 points a barge of pleasure. You can replace your raiders with venoms at 25 points a pair, for any raiders you have.

Where possible you should have no transport spaces empty. You could have a formation with 6 infantry units and 2 barges of pleasure, but not 6 infantry units a raider and 2 barges of pleasure. As my opponent said in our debrief of the test game, having 3 barges of pleasure per infantry formation as transport upgrades, was like having a pair of warhound titans added to the infantry formation for just 300 points. I am sure he will have something to say about the proposed change on wargamer.au when he gets home.

This post has been edited by Deb: Mar 12 2017, 04:13 PM


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Norto
post Mar 12 2017, 06:10 PM
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Nice write up and pics.


The transports do seam like a weird set up but its alot of points in one unit.


The thing is but the SM player can just say i dont want to target the formations in cover and just fire at the infantry or raiders as the dark eldar shields are counted in cover. So the only way to block the shooting is if the WE is blocking line of sight.


Also is there a objective in the space marine half really close to the board edge. They need to be 30 from players edges
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Norto
post Mar 12 2017, 06:16 PM
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Also i know people have probs said it heaps but for the marines make the warhounds single its to many points for 1 activation that can get broken easy. Force the opponent to try and take out both not just one to break it. Plus your defs on the blitz all game can be your bts. If your worried about air assaults or something early on against it just drop the transports and garrison them on the blitz for overwatch from the get go.
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fruitbat
post Mar 12 2017, 06:43 PM
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Deb, you should take this list (or similar) to Legions this month. See how it goes against different armies and opponents. One victory does not a trend make... I'd be curious to see if someone like Guard or Orks suffer the same fate.


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paulJam
post Mar 12 2017, 08:57 PM
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no, i'm not a great player, not even good. i know most of the general rules and roll the dice for fun and for narrative value. so not an expert.

for context: i'm also in the middle of a butt-hurt rage-quit on marines [a totally different topic that i'm debating bringing up... only a little debate, not a mass one.) so i had no expectations of them doing much against the DE for starters based on previous encounters.... skimmer army vs marines = why bother?

on topic: you have multiple formations each adding 3 > warhound eq survivability units based on this new clause... for 100pts each. looking at their stats they're not as gunny as WH's but they're a massive meat-shield for the unit before you even add firepower. even swapping in a WE eq to a LV/AV formation is iffy as frack IMO.

comparing lists, the DE has 10 warhound eq on the field while i had 2 (and the most i could get is 4).

i can't tack on 3 WH to tactical formations even at 275pt each, based on the hard limit of 1,000pt of allies if nothing else.
i can't even add bonus land raiders to a unit, which are very vaguely the closest SM core unit in terms of survivability (reinforced =/= dc + shields and LR cost a hefty 75pt each... so that's 25pt for 3shields AND 3dc vs reinforced 4+ WTF?!).

i understand that the game was an experiment, but it was also completely disheartening.
i'm hoping that other folk DO get to play it while it is is still an experimental rule so the DE doesn't get squatted when everyone gets curb-stomped by it at next cancon eq. by then it's too late.

This post has been edited by paulJam: Mar 12 2017, 08:58 PM
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paulJam
post Mar 14 2017, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE(paulJam @ Mar 12 2017, 09:57 PM) *


outburst. awkward. sorry.
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Deb
post Mar 15 2017, 08:51 PM
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I know the biggest problem you have with your SM army is that they cost a lot for a rule like ATSKNF which although they do not break as easily, they still can die off just as quickly, especially if the Dice Gods - Insert rant to bless the dice" (Blessed be Slaanesh and all the patrons of the holy octet, bless my dice and take this freshly dissected 40K plastic space marine miniature as an offering) , and resume message - seem to fail you.

I have been checking out the main things you and most SM players seen to have the most problems with Skimmer armies, and Dark Eldar in particular.

1: Skimmer armies tend to move faster than you do , and can force you to use your FF rather than your CC in engagements, and can sit behind cover and pop-up to attack you.

2: Eldar and Dark Eldar can move/ shoot/ move so effectively jump out from behind cover shoot you and then jump back to where they cam from or move behind some new cover to get closer to an objective.

3: Eldar can triple activate, even Dark Eldar have problems with this.

4: Dark Eldar have on their War Machines, well most of them (not the Perditor) Shadow Fields, and these in the new rules will not regenerate. But until they do, you are at -1 to hit the WE.

5: Tau can use their marker lights from skimmers sitting behind cover that can not see you and then allow other units that are out of sight to indirect fire at you, some of their shots even ignore cover.


I have found the best things to make Skimmers armies. Indirect weapons are key to facing off against armies like Eldar, tau and Dark Eldar. SM do get Whirlwinds, and they cost way too much for what they can do, and how much damage they can take in return.

However there is another SM list that gets a Landraider variant called the Achilles which although it is extremely expensive, has all the bonus survivability of Landraiders - 4+RA save, also get a Helios (like a whirlwind launcher) launcher that is only 45cm, but can indirect fire, and has an optional missile type that ignore cover. Handy to take down Shadow Fields. But as an addition to a tactical or Devastator squad, for 2 of them at 100 points each, they might not be worth it.

The same list has fortifications which can have Helios launchers, tarantulas or Quad cannon mounted on them.

Also if you look at SM terminators, they have a 3+ CC, and a 3+FF, so can take on skimmers in engagements (even if their CC weapons are EA+1 MW). As an alternative, this army gets Devastator Centurions which are 25 points cheaper, do not get the thick rear armour, but their FF value is 2+ with a 5+ CC.

Your army is already painted in their colours - Codex Imperial Fists.

The only thing the list does not have is Warhound Titans, it replaces them as part of the main SM Detachments with a Fellblade. That could solve the problem with being only able to field a maximum of 4 Warhounds. The Fellblade costs 325 points and does not have shields, but it does have 4DC, comes with 4 x range 45cm weapons, 2 x range 30cm weapons and 2 x range 75 cm Macro Weapons, and a 4+RA save.

Their static fortifications look pretty nasty, although skimmers might be able to just skim right over some of them, they do give you some very good save abilities against MW attacks, the Bastions look good as well.

Otherwise look to Scions of Iron.

Just some thoughts before you scrap you army for good.


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Epic Armageddon - Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Squats, Sian-Hann Eldar, Emperor's Children, Vraks Renegades and White Scars. Most of them over 8000 points each.

120,000 points of 40K, mostly Chaos Marine and Cultist. Sisters of Perfection (Slaaneshi Sisters), Orks mainly Kult of Speed, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Silence, Adeptus Custodes, 30K Thousand Sons, Adeptus Arbites.

Warzone Resurrection - Bauhaus, Imperial (MOW and WolfBane), Mishima, Capitol, and Brotherhood all over 8000 points each.

Dystopian Wars - Covenant of Antarctica, Australians, Ottomans, French, Russians, Mercenaries.
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fruitbat
post Mar 16 2017, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE(paulJam @ Mar 14 2017, 11:48 AM) *

outburst. awkward. sorry.

I'm feeling your pain there matey, but all is not lost...

First, as you've heard repeatedly, vanilla marines aren't rated to highly in the Oz meta. The Poms seem to be in love with them, but they drink warm beer armata_PDT_11.gif

Even though interwebz wisdom says whirlwinds are crap, I'd really suggest swapping out a pred formation for them. Pieplates slove a lot of the visibility/targetting issues as they cover more stuff, and your list is sadly lacking them. If nothing else, you'll have a good idea where the next assault might be headed.

I'd also look at squeezing in TBolts. You've got good air cover in the hunters, and evil pixies have sfa AA, so having something that can throw a blastie or two on them can help. Also, consider path of approach - you could potentially fly in from a direction that the barges do not give cover for (situational, but worth a go...)

Finally, Marines are sadly not as good at shooting as you'd expect, but seem pretty good at setting up crossfires (yay speeders!)- and DE armour is not so good. Might be something to try.


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WFB: Old school skull chucker with crew, 5th(?) ed treemen
Puppet Wars (1st ed): Sebastian, any pawns
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D_Arquebus
post Mar 16 2017, 11:24 AM
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Marines on the whole have same FF as CC? For Devastators it's better. Not sure how skimmers hurt them much. They are about the best army for it as the enemy cannot pick the weaker of the two in their favour.

Marines don't win with raw firepower. Marines win games with engagements. All that 40k style firepower is in the 15cm engagement and 4+ FF values.

They need to pick their engagements and make em count. That's why the common belief that marines need Thunderhawk Air assault to work well. They can use them to strike anywhere and with the 2nd empty Thunderhawk do a pick up in the same turn to rinse and repeat the next turn.

Otherwise, yes I'd imagine the Dark Eldar can use that wicked Eldar speed and Move Shoot Move to strike and run away.

Though some units can catch them (kinda) bikes/ landspeeders, or reach and touch them anyway (Whirlwinds). They just need protection from other units to keep em safe as them splash some indirect templates about. smile.gif

As an aside, the guys on Taccom in UK refer to heavy air power in their set ups. Not sure a Spaceship really helps re Dark Eldar but 2-3 units of planes might. Again, they can reach out anywhere to hit that fragile tissue paper armour and score some kills or at least place some blast markers. Also good for putting the hurt on broken formations (after say some air engagements) to stop them running a long way off to avoid further kills.

This post has been edited by D_Arquebus: Mar 16 2017, 11:32 AM


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paulJam
post Mar 16 2017, 11:55 AM
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+ + + + + + + + + +

i really hope that more people get to play against the DARK ELDAR WAR ENGINE transports lists to see the effect they have (which is pretty brutal).

+ + + + + + + + + +


QUOTE
Not sure how skimmers hurt them much. They are about the best army for it as the enemy cannot pick the weaker of the two in their favour.

it's mainly the 'meme-like' 2xTerminator/Thunderhawk build. A major attraction of termis is the 2xCC atk with MW that is negated, reducing the effectiveness of a very expensive unit.

again i apologise for the side-tracking; though thanks for the tips and advice which i will definitely try to take on board.
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Chaplain_Fortis
post Mar 16 2017, 12:29 PM
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The termis are good because they usually have at least one decent matchup and you can teleport them turn 3, it's the devastators in thunderhawks that are the real superstars of the marine list.

From the look of your list it seems like you're trying to shoot too much with an army that just doesn't shoot very well. 3 formations of predators seems like 3 too many to me and I'm not sure why your devastators are tasked with being BTS and anti air instead of being an assault formation. I also agree with DA on the assessment of paired warhounds. Give something like this a try:

Terminators Chaplain
Terminators
Devastators Librarian
Devastators Librarian
Scouts 1 Razorback
Scouts 1 Razorback
Speeders 1 Tornado
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Warhound
Warhound
Thunderbolts

Use the scouts strung out across the centre line to control the board and place blast markers along with the warhounds. Do the Thunderhawk drop and pickup thing with the devastators while clipping engaging a decent formation late in the turn. Use the TBolts to take out extra units from whatever you break.

The DE list does look nasty but it seems like something that can be balanced with point values rather than something that is just straight up too strong. If you can target the non-WE vehicles because the WE are in cover then it seems easy enough to break the unit that way. Can the formation beat 8 devastators with twin librarians out of a thunderhawk in a firefight assault on average rolls? Either way keep testing it, but try it against some of the other good tournament builds of other races. I have a feeling that it might struggle against Imperial Guard and Eldar and maybe Orks as well. And yeah, take it to a tournament.


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Norto
post Mar 16 2017, 02:31 PM
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Librarians

chaplins are the go. +1 to combat res is better then a macro shot FF
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Chaplain_Fortis
post Mar 16 2017, 02:32 PM
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Sorry, that is correct. I just painted Librarians so I tend to use them tongue.gif


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Deb
post Mar 19 2017, 09:33 PM
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I played a test game by myself (never the same as having an opponent, I know, but still it teaches me how other armies work) using the new proposed DE list and an Imperial Fists list. I stuffed up the list thinking the Achilles had AA missiles in their Helios Launchers. After I re-read the rules during the game, I realised I had made a mistake. I compounded the error by only buying a single Hunter tank as an upgrade for the Whirlwinds.

Anyway I took a huge amount of photos, which then after editing, and pruning, I got it down to about 60 photos for a 3 turn game. Since I consider the IF list busted as I should have added T/bolt fighters, or more hunters, the game was less than what it could have been. I found that the Fellblade is quite decent, but needs support. The whirlwinds if protected, can put put out a 6BP indirect attack each turn.

The Achilles performed quite well, however the Ravagers which were broken at one stage because of enemy Disrupt weapon attacks from the Achilles, ran away to the Blitz for 2 turns in case the SM decided to go for it, and to protect my DE BTS. When they did strike, the Ravagers removed 2 land raiders and one of the terminators riding it them from play.

The Syndicates performed moderately, but were better where I used the single Barge of Pleasure in front. The SM tried and succeeded in getting into close combat against 2 or 3 warriors each engagement, and made them lose warriors. I generally won the engagement based on dice rolls, outnumbering, and inspiring leaders.

The warriors were as I thought a bit lack lustre in their performance. The Incubi performed better, and helped destroy the enemy tactical formation [BTS] losing only 2 of their own to the chaplains MW weapon and a failed save. Even though I lost a VoP, they performed adequately well. The one I lost was shot down with concentrated fire from the terminators, and devastators backed up by their respective Achilles LR.

The Achilles do have decent weapons even though they do not have an AA weapon. The 2 x 45cm AP4+/AT6+ weapon can be used as IC or Disrupt. It has 2 x 15cm MW 3+ as back up.

The Reavers performed Ok as usual, however they were broken as a result of close combat when their combined 3 formations nearly destroyed the SM Tactical formation. Although the Reavers had not lost any models, their side lost the engagement, so they automatically broke, and retreated behind a hill. The SM countered and double moved a lone Achilles up which then proceeded to use the Disrupt weapon, and its 2 x MW 3+. The Reavers did not stand a chance as the units lost killed off another of their number as well. OUCH.

I retaliated and killed off the lone Achilles LR, but the damage had been done. All in all, the units that performed the best for the DE were the Vessels of Pain, the Incubi, the Ravagers, the Razorwings and the Reavers. The warriors and their basic transports were OK, but nothing to speak highly about. The Talos were also lack Lustre, but I only took 4 of them, and they faced off against 3 surviving terminators and 2 LR achilles in CC. They killed off a LR and a Terminator for the loss of 2 of their own, but lost to dice rolls. Thank goodness they were fearless. They later rallied and moved to reinforce and objective.

I think the warriors were worse off once they were grounded. I had to run between cover, and hide in ruins or woods as much as I could. They still lost units from CC, as they had no save. It did not help that they had smaller formation sizes, which can not last long in engagements like the larger IG or Ork formations can.

They do not have a special quirk to help them survive. SM have good armour and the ATSKNF rule, Necrons have the repair (will be back) rule, and an OK save. They used to be able to do drive-bys and hide in transports while keeping away from the enemy, and support engagements from their transports. That was the thing that kept them alive longer.

I still think I will not use many of them if the change in rules is made to the transports. I do like the portable wraithgate, even though only 1 formation can get use out of it, before it fades away.

If you want a report with all the pictures I can do one up on TacComs, however I think the battle was ruined by my lack of AA due to my not understanding what Achilles LR could do. The fortifications actually helped the Whirlwinds really. They were -1 to hit, and any infantry in the trenches got a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

This post has been edited by Deb: Mar 19 2017, 09:37 PM


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The world is chaotic, so why not join the party. Slaanesh welcomes you with open arms.

Epic Armageddon - Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Squats, Sian-Hann Eldar, Emperor's Children, Vraks Renegades and White Scars. Most of them over 8000 points each.

120,000 points of 40K, mostly Chaos Marine and Cultist. Sisters of Perfection (Slaaneshi Sisters), Orks mainly Kult of Speed, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Silence, Adeptus Custodes, 30K Thousand Sons, Adeptus Arbites.

Warzone Resurrection - Bauhaus, Imperial (MOW and WolfBane), Mishima, Capitol, and Brotherhood all over 8000 points each.

Dystopian Wars - Covenant of Antarctica, Australians, Ottomans, French, Russians, Mercenaries.
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D_Arquebus
post Mar 20 2017, 04:07 AM
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Deb - I'm not sure i understand the issue re Warriors.

They used to be able to.move, shoot (from.inside the vehicles), move yes?

Now they just have to dismount in the first move and remount in the 2nd? Makes positioning little tighter I'd imagine, but still doable as "eldar style drive bys"? smile.gif

Is it mainly the support FF only possible out of the vehicles now?

This post has been edited by D_Arquebus: Mar 20 2017, 04:08 AM


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Deb
post Mar 20 2017, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE(D_Arquebus @ Mar 20 2017, 05:07 AM) *

Deb - I'm not sure i understand the issue re Warriors.

They used to be able to.move, shoot (from.inside the vehicles), move yes?

Now they just have to dismount in the first move and remount in the 2nd? Makes positioning little tighter I'd imagine, but still doable as "eldar style drive bys"? smile.gif

Is it mainly the support FF only possible out of the vehicles now?


This makes the warriors very vulnerable when they have to dismount. Before any enemy on overwatch would have to target the LV that had a 4+ save. Now they can target the infantry who do not get a save, at best a -1 to hit if I have them in contact with the raider/ Venom. I loved being able to perform an engage action with the Supreme commander bring other formations along, and then getting all the units in range to fire fight, while the infantry stayed on their transports to use their FF, and not take up too much space where you need the other units to go. If you won then you moved the vehicles the full 35cm no fuss, and could then if needed dismount the infantry into ruins.

The new proposed rules stop all this. You have to deploy everything closely together with infantry somehow crammed behind the vehicle, but still touching it, and then get your best close combat units to the front. I suppose the only downside of always fighting from vehicles was that you ran the risk of losing the units on board if the vehicle was killed off. The infantry do get a 6+ cover save though, which is more than they get from sitting out in the open. According to the rules the attacker does not get a cover save from over watch fire when engaging, so the enemy can shoot your infantry once they dismount, even if you are in area terrain, and you do not get a save. I hate that rule/FAQ.

That is what I do not like about the proposed rule change. I have developed a fighting style that suit Dark Eldar to a T. Just like in 40K. Fast, mobile, and they do not have to get out of the raiders. I suppose it is also why I love the Reavers and to a degree Hellions. Fast, can get places and hold objectives, and can also hurt the enemy while doing it.


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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th May 2017 - 06:24 AM