Hi ho!! Hi ho!! It's off to war we go., 1500pts for tournament. Options

[Animal]

Lords:
(1) Dwarf Lord
+Shieldbearers
+ Shield
+ Master Rune of Spite
+ Master Rune of Alaric the Mad - 268pts

Heroes:
(1) Thane
+ BSB Upgrade
+ Master Rune of Gromril - 115pts

(2) Thane
+ Shield
+ Rune of Cleaving - 87pts

Core:
(1) 19 Dwarf Warriors
+ Shields
+ Musician
+ Standard bearer - 186pts
(Thane BSB Hero goes here)

(2) 19 Dwarf Warriors
+ Shields
+ Musician
+ Standard bearer
+ Great Weapons
+ Longbeard Upgrade - 281pts
(Thane Hero goes here)

(3) 10 Quarrellers - 110pts

(4) 10 Quarrellers - 110pts

Special:
(1) 2 Bolt Throwers - 90pts

(3) 17 Hammers
+ Shields
+ Musician
+ Standard bearer - 239pts
(Dwarf Lord here)

Total: 1500pts

Comments:
Utterly new to dwarves, so my list will probably make veteran dwarf players cringe. The basic plan for Sunday is to castle in a corner, shoot arrows and hopefully smash face when the enemy comes closer.

Suggestions, changes, comments are welcome.

[Nighteyes]

You need at least a runesmith in there for magic defence, otherwise you will get steamrolled by the magic phase.

Two BS3 bolt throwers won't do a lot, you would be better off with a basic cannon for the same points.

Also you might be overspending on the lord at 1500 pts. I would recommend dropping the weapon rune and just giving him a GW, St 6 will negate most armour anyway, then drop the shield and give him a rune of stone. That way your lord has a 1+/4+ and is S6. That should then free up some points for magic defence.

Other then that, your infantry units look solid for this points level.

This post has been edited by Nighteyes: Mar 13 2012, 07:21 AM

[Bruce Dickinson]

May not be the strongest looking dwarf army but I would suggest you go with it. There's no better way of finding out what works for you and what doesn't, then testing it out on the battlefield.

[arthurdent]

I'd drop the shields on the longbeards and hammerers as they are toting great weapons.

And yea drop the weapon rune and shield and exchange it for great weapon and rune of stone.

Should free up enough to swap the choppy thane for a runesmith with great weapon and dispel rune. Rune of stone too if you are feeling keen.

[thor_001]

I would say you are spending too much on charaters, and not enough on magic defense and artillery.

Generally I would only take a Lord at games over 2000pts and even then its not necessarily the best investment of points.

at 1500pts i'd say you best bet would be to start with the following base and then build...

Runesmith with RoSpellBreaking (Low/Med Magic Def)
Thane BSB (Probbaly with MRoGromril at the very least) (BSB Yay)
Cannon with RoForging and RoBurning (For Sniping Monsters)
GT with RoAccuracy and at least 1x RoPenentrating (For Thinning Ranked units)


Hammerers and Warriors with Great Weapons will do well for you as will small units of Quarrellers (with Great Weapons) and Thunderers (with Shields)

Organ Guns will tear shreds through your opponents at 1500pts, but if they explode early it can put a serious dent in your plan (and give away free VPs) so some people will take 10 Thunderers instead

[Kahz]

Lords:
(1) Dwarf Lord
+Shieldbearers
+ Shield
+ Master Rune of Spite
+ Master Rune of Alaric the Mad - 268pts

My advice on this, the weapon rune is nice, it does work nicely, but you do need the Ro Cleaving as well. Str 4 just doesn't cut it as a combat lord. An upcoming build I will be running includes a great weapon with Mro Kragg and Ro Speed, magical attacks and always init 5 for those init save or die spells, 4x str 6 + 2x str 4 is enough.
The Mro Spite is useful, but you'd be better off making his 1+ armour rerollable for 25 pts instead of the 45 pts for 4+ ward. Throw on the generally standard 1+ Rerollable armour with immune poison/killingblow/heroic killing blow is the best option, hardly anything strikes hard enough to dent him and no armour save attacks are very, very rare outside of warmachines. When he's in a unit, he gets his 2+ ward vs those anyway as well. I think all up, instead of the 45 pts it's 40 points for the immunities and rerolls, worth it once you try it

As well, Ro Fire somewhere for your combat guys. You will inevitably find something with regen, and having something break it in combat is a must! Pick a character, any will do, and deploy him where he'll be needed!

Heroes:
(1) Thane
+ BSB Upgrade
+ Master Rune of Gromril - 115pts

Survivable, but the reroll and/or immunity wouldn't go astray either. I've thrown one of these with a Ro Fire and rerollable 1+ solo into a hydra and laughed merrily as he ran it down. You won't regret that choice, but at 1500, you won't find much KB stuff. The rerolls would be awesome here!

(2) Thane
+ Shield
+ Rune of Cleaving - 87pts

Runs like my combat thane, really try and fit a ro stone on him though. 2+ as/6+ws T5 W2 dwarves are fun!
They really make the warrior units shine!

Core:
(1) 19 Dwarf Warriors
+ Shields
+ Musician
+ Standard bearer - 186pts
(Thane BSB Hero goes here)

Really suggest putting the bsb in the hammerers, you want the stubborn on him. In addition, really work in great weapons on all your warriors. Shields work, but str 3 armour 4 is really not what you need. You do have two thumpy blocks, a third is great, and dwarves T4 5+ AS is enough soak, get them enough to thump back or you WILL be breaking on combat res. Dropping shields from both warriors units gives the points for GW on this one.

(2) 19 Dwarf Warriors
+ Shields
+ Musician
+ Standard bearer
+ Great Weapons
+ Longbeard Upgrade - 281pts
(Thane Hero goes here)

As above, good solid unit, longbeards are nice.

(3) 10 Quarrellers - 110pts

(4) 10 Quarrellers - 110pts

Get a unit of thunderers instead. Seriously, SO much better!

(1) 2 Bolt Throwers - 90pts

As mentioned above, either swap for a cannon or get some engineers on them. Throw a Ro Burning on one too, to help ping aboms/hydras/trolls etc.

(3) 17 Hammers
+ Shields
+ Musician
+ Standard bearer - 239pts
(Dwarf Lord here)

These will be your bread n butter, throw them at something evil and scary and laugh all the way home.
With the lord they'll slam through most things and if you put the bsb in as well, happy days for every and more.

Try out the Mro Grungni though, instead of shields. 5+ ward is brilliantly more effective as a castling technique than shields on all your units, especially with things hitting at str >4, armour piercing or artillery, shields will get negated quick smart, while grungni just smiles on through. Castling with it you just pre-measure the bugger out of your deployment so all your front line stuff gets the ward save on turn 1, in case your opponent unloads while going first

Utterly new to dwarves, so my list will probably make veteran dwarf players cringe. The basic plan for Sunday is to castle in a corner, shoot arrows and hopefully smash face when the enemy comes closer.

Suggestions, changes, comments are welcome.

Look into some magic defense, a runesmith with mro balance and a ro shielding and just walk him around on his own, invite being shot at with his 2+ ward vs shooting. Throw on a shield and ro stone and that's a 2+ armour 2+ ward for shooting, people will take the bait
Try the list out, see what you lacked, reread the suggestions and take your pick that suits you Best of luck!

This post has been edited by Kahz: Mar 13 2012, 04:55 PM

[Animal]

That's some awesome feedback

The list I'm running with in the end.

Dwarfs - 1500pts

Lords:
Dwarf Lord
+ Shieldbearers
+ Great Weapon
+ Master Rune of Kragg the Grim
+ Rune of Speed
+ Rune of Fire
+ Rune of Stone
+ Rune of Resistance
+ Rune of Preservation - 251pts

Heroes:
Thane
+ BSB Upgrade
+ Master Rune of Gromgril
+ Rune of Resistance - 140pts

Runesmith
+ Shield
+ Master Rune of Balance
+ Rune of Stone - 127pts

Core:
20 Dwarf Warriors
+ Great Weapons
+ Musician
+ Standard Bearer

19 Dwarf Warriors
+ Great Weapons
+ Musician
+ Standard Bearer
+ Longbeard Upgrade - 262pts

10 Thunderers - 140pts

Special:
17 Hammerers
+ Musician
+ Standard Bearer
+ Master Rune of Grungi - 272pts

1 Cannon - 90pts

Total - 1497pts.

[Nighteyes]

@ Kahz - Rune of speed won't help you against stat tests, it only applies when making attacks with the weapon in combat not when taking an initiative test, so rune of speed on a GW won't really help in anyway. EDIT: Actually just looked into this and you may be right Kahz, weapons in the rule book say that any modification to S, I etc are made when using the weapon in combat, whereas the rune description just states adds +1 to I, same as cleaving adds +1 to strength. Nothing in the rulebook or FAQ's to state otherwise, so in my humble opinion I stand corrected and good pick-up Kahz

@ Animal - If you are putting the BSB in the hammerers, give him the rune of fire instead, the lord will strike at the same time as the hammerers so it won't help you get rid of regen, better off giving it to the BSB, also ensures you have 2 characters in the unit with magic attacks.

Your new list looks solid, good luck with it.

This post has been edited by Nighteyes: Mar 14 2012, 08:32 AM

[Theodore]

I disagree with running a Lord generally, however if you want a lord, I would prefer to keep him cheap.

Lord
- Shieldbearers
- Gromril Armor
- Rune of stone
- Rune of Resistance
- Great Weapon
- Maybe a rune of preservation.....

That is a cheap, 1+ rerollable save, 4xS6 attacks +2xS4.

BSB
- Master Rune of Gromril
- Rune of Resistance
- Master Rune of challenge

All you need really.

Given this list, and that it is 1500 points, magic won't play a massive role in many games. I think you will find most 1500 pt lists will have a L2 only. I reckon you could go with no runesmith. It would be brave, but it could be done.

If you did so....

23 Longbeards, full command, rune of determination, great weapons.

2x10 Thundereres / Quarrellers w great weapons

Cannon, rune of Forging

Grudge Thrower, engineer, rune of penetration, burning and accuracy

23 Hammerers, full command Master Rune of Ghrungi

I don't have my book on me for points, but if you have any left, you could grab a unit of Ironbreakers 3x6 with command to protect the middle. With a 3+ save 6+ parry, they tend to soak up damage, and S4 attacks still gains them a few points of combat res. Alternatively, you could get units of 10 warriors, GW / Muso or 10 X-bows w GW and Muso to acts as light troops on the flanks.

Just my 2c.

[Kahz]

@ Kahz - Rune of speed won't help you against stat tests, it only applies when making attacks with the weapon in combat not when taking an initiative test, so rune of speed on a GW won't really help in anyway. EDIT: Actually just looked into this and you may be right Kahz, weapons in the rule book say that any modification to S, I etc are made when using the weapon in combat, whereas the rune description just states adds +1 to I, same as cleaving adds +1 to strength. Nothing in the rulebook or FAQ's to state otherwise, so in my humble opinion I stand corrected and good pick-up Kahz

@ Animal - If you are putting the BSB in the hammerers, give him the rune of fire instead, the lord will strike at the same time as the hammerers so it won't help you get rid of regen, better off giving it to the BSB, also ensures you have 2 characters in the unit with magic attacks.

Your new list looks solid, good luck with it.

Cheers Nighteyes, I can be a sneaky bastard at times Got sick of watching my characters vanish so I looked hard and tossed the wording around, accordingly it should work against stat checks! No more easy-fail dwarf characters!

I do agree on the Ro Fire change though, you want it on the guy that'll get an attack off first and since as bsb he will be init 3 over GW dwarves, get it on him. You want them at least attempted to be broken first, it can make a huge difference to how combat pans out.

Given this list, and that it is 1500 points, magic won't play a massive role in many games. I think you will find most 1500 pt lists will have a L2 only. I reckon you could go with no runesmith. It would be brave, but it could be done.

I really disagree on this. Even at 1500 you'll find people will run a lvl 3 at the least and fore-go combat lords. Magic buffing stuff will be slim, but it's the lvl 3-4 mage that will shred you a new one. I did a tourney at 1800 pts and I regularly ran into lvl 4's or multiple lvl 1-2's. 375 pts on lords is more than enough to fit a lvl 4 with a 4+ ward and something else, don't underestimate that. Some will even roll a lvl 4, lvl 2 and a bsb, you will not be dealt with too harshly if you come prepared and if they don't have anything too scary then hopefully he'll help shut it down completely.

The runesmith grants an effective +3 dispel dice (+2/-1) and an extra bit of damage soak in a longbeard unit with his 2+/6+ and 2 wounds. Only really need him going until you get into combat. Remember things with remains in play you can dispel on your magic phase (we do actually get one!) so never be afraid to let them through if it's a preventative measure on your opponents part and you need to to let one spell off to stop the big monster one that inevitably sits creeping in a corner looking evilly at your init 2 dwarves

This post has been edited by Kahz: Mar 14 2012, 05:29 PM

[Theodore]

I really disagree on this. Even at 1500 you'll find people will run a lvl 3 at the least and fore-go combat lords. Magic buffing stuff will be slim, but it's the lvl 3-4 mage that will shred you a new one. I did a tourney at 1800 pts and I regularly ran into lvl 4's or multiple lvl 1-2's. 375 pts on lords is more than enough to fit a lvl 4 with a 4+ ward and something else, don't underestimate that. Some will even roll a lvl 4, lvl 2 and a bsb, you will not be dealt with too harshly if you come prepared and if they don't have anything too scary then hopefully he'll help shut it down completely.

Hi Kahz,

In the end it's a judgement call. Personally, I wouldn't run a Dwarf Lord in 1500 pts either. I'd run a BSB and Runesmith with MR balance, rune of stone, shield for exactly the reasons you stated.

Which ever way you go, if you see an opponent with a Mage Lord, BSB I reckon you see the same points in characters at 1500 that many players use in 2400/2500 which means you should have a massive advantage in shooting / combat phases .

[thor_001]

Theodore and Khaz both have good points

1500pts is enough to allow an Army to take lots of magic if they want to, but if they do they trade off in other area's.

The best thing you can do it build a list that, when faced with a magic heavy list, you can survive through the barrage, and when faced with a magic lite list, not spend the whole game wondering why you wasted 300pts on a kitted out runelord.

My Suggestion would be to take a Runesmith with a spell breaker, roStone and a shield at the very least, anything less than that is too risky.

[Animal]

Well the glorious dwarf thring marches off to do battle with the hideous and evil things.

Game 1: Empire
Stank, War Altar, Arch Lector, BSB with lots of Greatswords, Flaggellants and Swordsman.

(sigh)

Turn 1 see's my cannon disappear in a puff of broken metal and smoke; the rest of the game see's the Stank eat my army unit by unit. Alot of stuff was killed by the angry shortmen but I couldn't get those last few models in those units. The Stank was the only thing I couldn't deal with and it was the only thing that carried the Empire to victory.

1-19 (Loss)

Game 2: Tomb Kings
He feed his army into my advancing battleline peicemeal until I crunched onto a horde of skellies with poked alot of dwarfs to death. Dice could have been alot better for me and my opponent this game, I knocked over his general when he underestimated the Dwarf Lord in combat which gave me the win (Blood and Glory)

(Win)

Game 3: Wood Elves (Chris Lovell)
Turn 1 watches the Wood Elf bow unit Moonstone? into the woods nearby and proceed to kill my Dwarf Lord and entire Hammer unit with magic and shooting. Forced to break my battleline way to early, their was a glimmer of hope from a heroic unit of Longbeards charging into the combat but the game was pretty much done. With my line in pieces, the wood elves ran into and over my remaining units.

You know I am beginning to really hate the 8th edition VP system now. Killing off entire units to get VPs is giant pain in the bottom, everything MOVES FASTER than my dwarfs

0 - 20 (Loss)

Comments:
I don't think I did anything hideously wrong with deployment, in most games I was able to deploy and engage the units I wanted to. Dice could have been marginally better. Just about every game I wrecked and wounded stuff in combat, even against the Wood Elves I butchered a sizeable portion of his models but couldn't squeeze through enough to get those much needed points.

Practice makes perfect.

[thor_001]

Congrats on your Win against TK's

Against empire you probably got unlucky... if you could have wounded his STank enough for it to be ineffective it was probably a game you could have won.

Against Wood elves you just lost too much too early, which I see as being a combination of good luck/deployment/play by your opponent, and small/expensive units in your list.

And by that I mean, your Hammerers and Lord were 1/3 of your armies points, and probably more like 50% of its killing ability.

I think if you reduced your investment in characters and used the points to buff troops and warmachines you would do alot better, WM's would soften units for you, and give you multiple monster(STank) slayers, and bigger units help prevent what happened in the 3rd game.

If you want to take a Lord, i would make him a Runelord, with say 50pts of anti magic (Balance, or 2xSpell Breaker, or Spelleater) and then some protection runes

My regular opponent at 1500pts is Lizardmen, so i like to deploy units 7 wide to help against his 25mm infantry... (you just cant beat saurus using 5 wide... even with hammerers).

My suggestion would be something like:

Runelord, MRoBalance, blah blah blah...
Thane BSB Tank...
Cannon, Forging, Burning
GT, Accuracy, Penn
19/20 or 26/27 Hammerers with Grungni (Depending on how many ranks you want and where your charaters will go)

This leaves you with plenty of points for Say LB Rangers (which a valid even with no warriors since they are Rangers) and Quarrellers, or 2x 25ish Warriors or even 30warriors and an Organ Gun

[Nighteyes]

Hammerers with Grungni (Depending on how many ranks you want and where your charaters will go)

Never leave home without the grungi banner, not only does it provide protection to your best unit, it also extends to everything within 6", If deployed right this can often cover most of your army.

It can help in those artillery duals with empire

This post has been edited by Nighteyes: Mar 20 2012, 10:48 AM

[Kahz]

Congrats on your Win against TK's

Against empire you probably got unlucky... if you could have wounded his STank enough for it to be ineffective it was probably a game you could have won.

Aye, congrats. Empire is a hard match up with the stank, the cannon needs to focus it and focus it hard, and oft times when you only run one if you don't get a good wounding shot on it, your own cannon is gonna be receiving fire from theirs.

Against Wood elves you just lost too much too early, which I see as being a combination of good luck/deployment/play by your opponent, and small/expensive units in your list.

And by that I mean, your Hammerers and Lord were 1/3 of your armies points, and probably more like 50% of its killing ability.

So now you've experienced what it's like to suffer from magic without being able to give it back in the phase
WE are one of the tougher match ups for dwarves at this points, they outmanoeuvre, out magic, and out shoot us. And while we can outfight them in combat, it's getting there that hurts. It's where I find an anvil to be very useful, lets you catch up to them or just pummel them in return, squishy elves that they be.

I think if you reduced your investment in characters and used the points to buff troops and warmachines you would do alot better, WM's would soften units for you, and give you multiple monster(STank) slayers, and bigger units help prevent what happened in the 3rd game.

If you want to take a Lord, i would make him a Runelord, with say 50pts of anti magic (Balance, or 2xSpell Breaker, or Spelleater) and then some protection runes

See I disagree, I enjoy spending lotsa points on characters, but that's just me
Characters can make and break dwarves, but tbh at 1.5k the points could indeed be spent effectively elsewhere if you so chose.
A runelord with 2x spellbreaker or a Mro Balance are both solid options, and leave kit for combat.

My regular opponent at 1500pts is Lizardmen, so i like to deploy units 7 wide to help against his 25mm infantry... (you just cant beat saurus using 5 wide... even with hammerers).

You must just be unlucky, I've slammed through saurus with 5 wide normal GW warriors often enough, though they do usually have a GW thane in there to help
7 wide is good, but you really want the 3 ranks after first round. If you do win combat, their being steadfast will make it pointless you being 7 wide, 3 dicing high LD will almost never fail, so no point, and you'll get minced after the first or second round of combat by the sheer amount of attacks and your ranks fall.

Never leave home without the grungi banner, not only does it provide protection to your best unit, it also extends to everything within 6", If deployed right this can often cover most of your army.

It can help in those artillery duals with empire

Aye, deploy it so it covers your war machines, effects them too! First turn means you're more likely to have a cannon left to shoot back with.

My suggestion would be something like:

Runelord, MRoBalance, blah blah blah...
Thane BSB Tank...
Cannon, Forging, Burning
GT, Accuracy, Penn
19/20 or 26/27 Hammerers with Grungni (Depending on how many ranks you want and where your charaters will go)

This leaves you with plenty of points for Say LB Rangers (which a valid even with no warriors since they are Rangers) and Quarrellers, or 2x 25ish Warriors or even 30warriors and an Organ Gun

Pretty close to how I'd go, though I'd favour the smaller hammerers, they get focused enough and with 26+ that's a massive points sink, with character(s) will be between 1/3-2/3 your army points, which is really painful to watch die.

Personal choice of mine would be the following:

1500 Pts - Dwarfs Roster

Runelord (218 pts)
Shield
Rune of Cleaving x1
Rune of Resistance; Rune of Stone
Rune of Spellbreaking x1


Thane (145 pts)
BSB
Rune of Fire
Master Rune of Gromril; Rune of Resistance

Thane (74 pts)
GW
Rune of Stone

Thane (74 pts)
GW
Rune of Stone


19 Dwarf Warriors (215 pts)
FC, GW

19 Dwarf Warriors (215 pts)
FC, GW


18 Hammerers (284 pts)
Standard, Muso
Runic Standard (Master Rune of Grungni)

Artillery Battery (130 pts)
1 Cannon
Rune of Burning; Rune of Forging

Artillery Battery (145 pts)
1 Grudge Thrower
Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Penetrating x1
Engineer


Validation Report:
Army Subtype: Dwarf Army; Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 218 (0 - 375)
Points of Heroes: 293 (0 - 375)
Points of Core: 430 (375 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 559 (0 - 750)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 375)

Total Roster Cost: 1500

Lord/BSB in hammerers, lord could have better magic defence if you want him to, but at 1.5k at most I'd swap Ro cleaving/spellbreaker & something else for a Mro Balance.
GW thanes in warriors to buff their output, they work surprisingly well I've found. Can always replace them and buff the warriors up to 25 strong each and leaves points left over for other stuff.
3 combat blocks capable of some good damage output, hammerers with their banner of shoot me I don't care.
Cannon to cannon/beasty hunt, grudgy to weaken blocks and chaff hunt when necessary. Could always replace with organ gun or a unit of thunderers, personal pref there.

Just an idea

I don't think I did anything hideously wrong with deployment, in most games I was able to deploy and engage the units I wanted to. Dice could have been marginally better. Just about every game I wrecked and wounded stuff in combat, even against the Wood Elves I butchered a sizeable portion of his models but couldn't squeeze through enough to get those much needed points.

Practice makes perfect.

Aye, I've found it hard to finish off things for the points. End up leaving many units barely alive with 1-3 models but just can't get the last hits to make the points back! I've left a stank on 1 wound from turn 1 until end game, couldn't get a chance to finish it (made me weep tears of beard)
It's a struggle, but something you'll need to adapt to with priority choices and such. Has taken me about half a year of tourney play with my dwarves to find my ideal list and start getting VP in decent numbers!

Good result for an unfamiliar army for you, can only get better!

This post has been edited by Kahz: Mar 20 2012, 12:57 PM

[Animal]

Another tournament looms around the corner (next week), while the new Empire book looks shiny I keep coming back to my dwarves lurking on shelf where I left them from last time.

Probably run something quite similiar to the list above, but somehow find the points to include one or two more pieces of artillary.