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> The Fortress, fortifications and bastions Thread
jasonc
post Sep 16 2013, 06:31 PM
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That's pretty funny


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Æon
post Sep 16 2013, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE(Matt--ShadowLord @ Sep 16 2013, 06:25 PM) *

Very sneaky biggrin.gif
I was also surprised when I found out any unit can jump out of any point of any vehicle at any time as long as the door is blocked. The common assumption is that this can only be done when a vehicle is destroyed, but the emergency disembarkation rules make no reference of this and even use an image of an intact vehicle to demonstrate it.

@Crynn - AFAIK it doesn't have to be an enemy unit or an ally that counts as an enemy that blocks the exit. It can be any model or another vehicle from your own army, since models cannot move through friendly or enemy models. As long as the exit is blocked, the unit can emergency disembark.

I must try combining this with meltaguns and "Get Back in the Fight!".



I could be missing something, but P79 says "If any models cannot disembark, because of enemies or impassible terrain, the unit can perform an emergency disembarkation."

So yes, Allies of convenience can allow you to do a emergency disembarkation if they are surrounding the access point, but your friendly vehicle wont be able to do it.

Also; "The unit cannot then perform any voluntary actions for the rest of the turn" So 'Get back in the fight wont be able to help you there either.

Cheesy guard players, isn't using IG easy enough without having to break the rules? tongue.gif

This post has been edited by ĆON: Sep 16 2013, 07:05 PM


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defult06
post Sep 16 2013, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE(ĆON @ Sep 16 2013, 07:34 PM) *

I could be missing something, but P79 says "If any models cannot disembark, because of enemies or impassible terrain, the unit can perform an emergency disembarkation."


I could be wrong here be wouldn't this sentence mean that you can not emergency disembark from the top as you are able to disembark by jumping off, so therefor you do not reach the justification for using emergency disembark and you must jump?
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Æon
post Sep 16 2013, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE(defult06 @ Sep 16 2013, 08:40 PM) *

I could be wrong here be wouldn't this sentence mean that you can not emergency disembark from the top as you are able to disembark by jumping off, so therefor you do not reach the justification for using emergency disembark and you must jump?


I wasn't referring to the 'tactic' of emergency disembarking from a terrain piece, rather Matts idea of using his own chimeras to get his melta gun vets out the front of a chimera then unpinning them to shoot.


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Krefey
post Sep 17 2013, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE(Matt--ShadowLord @ Sep 16 2013, 06:25 PM) *

Very sneaky biggrin.gif
I was also surprised when I found out any unit can jump out of any point of any vehicle at any time as long as the door is blocked. The common assumption is that this can only be done when a vehicle is destroyed, but the emergency disembarkation rules make no reference of this and even use an image of an intact vehicle to demonstrate it.



Isn't emergency disembark only allowed when the vehicle is destroyed? I.e. it is only triggered by the transport's destruction which then refers you to the emergency disembark rules?


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Matt--ShadowLord
post Sep 19 2013, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE(Krefey @ Sep 17 2013, 01:07 PM) *

Isn't emergency disembark only allowed when the vehicle is destroyed? I.e. it is only triggered by the transport's destruction which then refers you to the emergency disembark rules?


No, that's a common misunderstanding based on the fact that it is competely logical and makes sense. biggrin.gif

If you check the Emergency Disembarkation rules on page 79 you will see it is actually just one more form of disembarkation, with no requirement that the vehicle is destroyed. In fact the illustration even shows an intact vehicle.

QUOTE
I could be missing something, but P79 says "If any models cannot disembark, because of enemies or impassible terrain, the unit can perform an emergency disembarkation."
So yes, Allies of convenience can allow you to do a emergency disembarkation if they are surrounding the access point, but your friendly vehicle wont be able to do it.


That could be correct, I've never had the motivation to either use the rule or dig into it. I'd read the two as examples of things that can block disembarkation rather than as a comprehensive list because of the way GW added a comma in the middle instead of just writing a nice clear "If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or impassible terrain". There are probably other examples of things that can prevent disembarking other than enemies or impassible terrain, but I don't think it's ever going to be worth trying to convince an opponent. So I won't here either biggrin.gif


QUOTE
Also; "The unit cannot then perform any voluntary actions for the rest of the turn" So 'Get back in the fight wont be able to help you there either.


I think that's correct; checking the "Get Back in the Fight" rule in the IG codex it says the ordered squad may shoot and assault as normal this turn (yay!) but that it can only be issued to a unit that is falling back or has gone to ground. "cannot then perform any voluntary actions" doesn't equal going to ground.
So you'd need throw them out of the vehicle, to lose a couple guys and fall back in order to give them the order biggrin.gif

And then as a final note on this obscure rule, the "The unit cannot then perform any voluntary actions for the rest of the turn" is for a turn rather than game turn, so the other surprise for opponents is when they destroy a vehicle and your men emergency disembark they are only pinned during the opponents turn.
In your own next player turn they perform normally.
("Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn'it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'.")

I have one question for Crynn though, based on his description of how he used it for the bastion:

QUOTE(Crynn @ Sep 13 2013, 02:08 AM) *
Having a unit on top of the bastion doesn't actually let you target the bastion. You have to be inside it. The battlements count as a separate building to the bastion itself. It describes this in the rulebook and an FAQ.

AS for my little emergency disembarkation trick. Essentially the rules say if the door is blocked by an 'enemy unit' you can emergency disembark out of any part of the building. I was playing grey knights and blood angels who are allies of convenience, ergo they are enemies to each other that can't be targeted by either army. I used some GK models to block the door so my blood angel scouts could emergency disembark out the opposite side of the building to the door.


If the top of the bastion was not also full, couldn't the Scouts have disembarked through the top hatch? It seems that to force (or allow) an emergency disembarkation you'd need to block both the door and the hatch.


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Paddlepop Lion
post Sep 19 2013, 05:52 PM
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That's a good point actually
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Paddlepop Lion
post Dec 16 2013, 07:59 AM
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Now that the new fortification book is out and has updated the rules for buildings to be far more sensible. Can we ditch this silly change that prevents us putting one within 3 " of a board edge?
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Paddlepop Lion
post Jan 27 2014, 10:57 AM
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How are we playing the skyshield landing pad?

Is it just terrain where a blast will hit models bottom the top and the bottom but my beasts and tanks etc can drive to and from the top bit?

Or is it like a level where a blast weapon hits either the top or bottom bit but my beasts and tanks cannot get ontop?

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difsta
post Jan 28 2014, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Jan 27 2014, 11:57 AM) *

How are we playing the skyshield landing pad?

Is it just terrain where a blast will hit models bottom the top and the bottom but my beasts and tanks etc can drive to and from the top bit?

Or is it like a level where a blast weapon hits either the top or bottom bit but my beasts and tanks cannot get ontop?


This is normally handled by a captains FAQ vote, which we haven't started yet... I will try and get this started ASAP


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Demon
post Jan 28 2014, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Dec 16 2013, 07:59 AM) *

Can we ditch this silly change that prevents us putting one within 3 " of a board edge?


But thats a good thing. Stops people from sealing off whole sections of the table and so on.


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Paddlepop Lion
post Jan 28 2014, 04:55 PM
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but the rules have changed you can blow up a building in such a way that its removed from the table. You can also walk over it when its wrecked and debateably even run up the walls to assault the battlements as if it was a ruin.
In addition to this, its jsut like a ruin so most unit types can get ontop of it rather than just jump and infantry types.

This was done to appease people who were salty when they got stung by the building rules and its really no longer needed.
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Angmar
post Jan 28 2014, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Jan 28 2014, 05:55 PM) *

but the rules have changed you can blow up a building in such a way that its removed from the table. You can also walk over it when its wrecked and debateably even run up the walls to assault the battlements as if it was a ruin.
In addition to this, its jsut like a ruin so most unit types can get ontop of it rather than just jump and infantry types.

This was done to appease people who were salty when they got stung by the building rules and its really no longer needed.


The previous building rules were incomplete and pretty vague, you had to go over several rules and then decide on a technicality to come to the conclusion of last atc when it came to buildings. I still find the atc faq decision a little bizarre last year.

But I'd agree, the new rules do make the board denial from buildings much less significant. So I'm not sure a 3" rule would be necessary from now.
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