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> The Fortress, fortifications and bastions Thread
Matt--ShadowLord
post Sep 10 2013, 12:07 PM
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I've created this thread to prevent the ATC Feedback thread being derailed, and cordially invite anyone with an opinion to join the discussion here instead.




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Matt--ShadowLord
post Sep 10 2013, 12:13 PM
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For easy reference, here is how they were played at the event.

QUOTE
ATC FAQFORTIFICATONS
31. Can a flyer land on top of a building, eg. Fortress or Bastion?
No. Battlements state that you can be on top and you count as being embarked. It also says that Jump Pack and Jet Pack units can move directly onto the battlement. It does not mention flyer, skimmer, jetbike or any other type of model/unit. It can however land on top of a skyshield landing pad though.

32. What is the cover save value for a sky shield landing pad?
The Skyshield is a fortification and offers a 3+ cover save. This means that the skyshield gives a 4+ invulnerable save to units on top of the skyshield, and a 3+ cover save for models obscured by any part of the fortification.

33. How do models move on to or off of a Skyshield?
Models can move on to or off of a Skyshield at any point on an edge of the model. This requires a difficult terrain test, counting the distance from the ground to top of the Skyshield as 3". Use the Moving Within Ruins to determine what unit types can go up and down levels. This section states to agree with your opponent before the game what other unit types can enter the upper levels; for the purposes of the ATC Walkers and Monstrous Creatures are allowed as it is clearly sturdy. It is possible that models from the same unit may end up spread across the skyshield and ground below. In this case, the models on different levels maintain unit coherency the same way as within ruins (pg98 BRB).

34. Does the aegis defence line give cover to any model 25% obscured by it, or only those 'behind' the adl based on its front facing?
Any model obscured gains a cover save; ‘behind’ the ADL simply means on the other side of it.

35. Must weapons or commlinks purchased with the ADL be placed in contact with it?
No, the pieces of the ADL must be placed in a continuous line, but there is no requirement to place the gun or commlink in contact with it.

36. Does the Skyshield’s invulnerable save against shooting attacks apply to models or units?
Models on top of the Skyshield gain a 4+ invulnerable save against shooting (page 115)

37. How are converted fortifications going to work? Eg. I convert my bastion to have all the guns mounted on the same facing?
Doors and firepoints must be clear on the model, and made clear to your opponent before the game begins. The weapon placements in the rule book are worded as recommendations but for the purposes of consistency at the ATC:
• Individually purchased Heavy Bolters may be placed anywhere on the model
• The placement of all weapons, doors and firepoints must be consistent throughout the tournament.


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Dono1979
post Sep 10 2013, 12:24 PM
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Are you allowing Vehicles to 'drive' onto a Skyshield? And likewise are you allowing them to be deployed onto the Skyshield?


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Matt--ShadowLord
post Sep 10 2013, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(Dono1979 @ Sep 10 2013, 01:24 PM) *

Are you allowing Vehicles to 'drive' onto a Skyshield? And likewise are you allowing them to be deployed onto the Skyshield?


To be clear, this is the 2013 FAQ not a future one, so the above shows what was allowed rather than what we are allowing in future.
Yes vehicles were allowed to be deployed onto the skyshield, and yes as it was judged as sturdy they could move up requiring 3" and a dangerous terrain test.

The "tweak" to the rules in this FAQ was that the 4+ vs shooting was given to only those individual models from units on top of the Skyshield (the rule book just says the unit gets it), which apparently resulted in nobody taking one to the ATC.


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Æon
post Sep 10 2013, 12:52 PM
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Dont like the converted fortress idea and 'guidelines' in a competitive environment like the ATC you know its going to be abused...


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westwood
post Sep 10 2013, 01:11 PM
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Bastions and units on battlements - I was told that because the unit on top of the building, I couldn't shoot the building, was this played correctly?
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Matt--ShadowLord
post Sep 10 2013, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE(westwood @ Sep 10 2013, 02:11 PM) *

Bastions and units on battlements - I was told that because the unit on top of the building, I couldn't shoot the building, was this played correctly?


Depends what you mean exactly.
If an enemy unit is on the battlements the unit can be shot as usual with just a 4+ cover save (not 3+).
If an enemy unit is inside a building, you can shoot the building, and having a unit on top does not prevent you from shooting the building.
If an enemy unit is not inside you cannot shoot or assault it (but can enter it).


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Demon
post Sep 10 2013, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE
Fortresses/Bastions - 1-You should be able to shoot/assault/kill them when theyre empty


Dont you just occupy the building and hit it?



I agree completely, its a bizarre rule.



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CaptSparrow
post Sep 10 2013, 01:38 PM
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If you are on top of the building on the battlements, you are not occupying the building. If no one is occupying the building, you can't shoot it. Hence is someone is on the battlements and the rest I the building is empty, you ant shoot it.
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Demon
post Sep 10 2013, 01:47 PM
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I dont think that changes my statement regarding bizarreness


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Durkah
post Sep 10 2013, 01:47 PM
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I fail to see how this ruling is any worse than some of the others that was played on the weekend. I.e single units being joined by IC. There was another bizarre one which I don't remember.


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westwood
post Sep 10 2013, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE(Matt--ShadowLord @ Sep 10 2013, 01:21 PM) *

Depends what you mean exactly.
If an enemy unit is on the battlements the unit can be shot as usual with just a 4+ cover save (not 3+).
If an enemy unit is inside a building, you can shoot the building, and having a unit on top does not prevent you from shooting the building.
If an enemy unit is not inside you cannot shoot or assault it (but can enter it).


Unit was on the battlements, nothing inside. Door place so that it was inaccessible. (building right in the corner of the table, door facing the corner)

Can't kill what you can't see, so there were 2 guys up there that couldn't be killed from shooting. I lobbed frag and krak grenades at them in Assault (after being told I could do so turn 2).

Ruling that a multipart building section can't be shot because the enemy is in another section is boarder line retarded (good one GW). Why 9 guys with melta guns would go "jeez, wish I had some way to get those sneaky buggers down from that tower" and not just raze the thing I don't know.

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Matt--ShadowLord
post Sep 10 2013, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE(Durkah @ Sep 10 2013, 02:47 PM) *

I fail to see how this ruling is any worse than some of the others that was played on the weekend. I.e single units being joined by IC. There was another bizarre one which I don't remember.


I assume you mean a riptide being joined by an ethreal/commander/farseer etc (because it's always the Riptide that raises this question smile.gif).
If so, it's standard practise and legal unless FAQed due to the fact that Riptides have the option to take drones.

This post has been edited by Matt--ShadowLord: Sep 10 2013, 02:14 PM


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Durkah
post Sep 10 2013, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE(Matt--ShadowLord @ Sep 10 2013, 02:13 PM) *

I assume you mean a riptide being joined by an ethreal/commander/farseer etc (because it's always the Riptide that raises this question smile.gif).
If so, it's standard practise and legal unless FAQed due to the fact that Riptides have the option to take drones.

I realise they have the option. But when you create the army list, you haven't taken that option and then it always consists of a singlemodel.


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QUOTE(esrun @ Feb 8 2012, 04:53 PM) *
DND = do not disturb

I always play this especially while fapping.


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"I don't understand why you take morale tests from dangerous terrain. Did you see what that rock did to Jim, quick run"

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You know your rule knowledge is bad when Shaun Hogan is correcting you :P

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Chaplain_Fortis
post Sep 10 2013, 02:48 PM
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fort1tude
post Sep 10 2013, 03:01 PM
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Well

You can but it depends on your interpretation of the term always consists of a single model.

For some that means that if you have the option of making the unit larger in the codex then it doesn't always consist of a single model

For others they are of the opinion that if you only bought the single model than your unit does infact always only consist of a single model


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Paddlepop Lion
post Sep 10 2013, 03:04 PM
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I really think people's le beef is coming simply from not playing against them enough. They aren't broken or unbeatable they are just different and require adding stuff to your lists or playing in different ways to deal with them.

That said, the can't shoot it when nobody is in it rule is strange but fliers not occupying battlements isn't really. It's a model not terrain you can't put one on a rhino.
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Krefey
post Sep 10 2013, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE(Durkah @ Sep 10 2013, 02:40 PM) *

I realise they have the option. But when you create the army list, you haven't taken that option and then it always consists of a singlemodel.


This. The rulebook specifically states that units consisting of a single model cannot be joined by an IC.


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Demon
post Sep 10 2013, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE(Durkah @ Sep 10 2013, 01:47 PM) *

I fail to see how this ruling is any worse than some of the others that was played on the weekend. I.e single units being joined by IC. There was another bizarre one which I don't remember.


These would be rulings from team captains before it got to me right? Because single model + IC is not something I'd be up with


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Matt--ShadowLord
post Sep 10 2013, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE(Krefey @ Sep 10 2013, 04:12 PM) *

This. The rulebook specifically states that units consisting of a single model cannot be joined by an IC.


Almost, but there is an important distinction.

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER (page 39)
Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however,
join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a
single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures). They
can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful
multicharacter unit!


The Riptide is not a unit that always consists of a single model, so Independent Characters are able to join it even if it starts the game as a unit consisting of a single model.

It is probably not how it was intended to be played, but unless FAQed the Riptide will remain a very common ethereal or commander babysitter.


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