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Khysanth
post Aug 21 2017, 10:48 PM
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So, what is everyone's thoughts about the new strategems found in a codex, and do you think it is fair to use them in a game if playing against an opponent whose army codex is not yet out?

Some are quite powerful as I found out in a recent game. It was a 2k game of Chaos Marines vs Necrons. The Chaos player had like 3 squads of 40 cultists, a couple of bike squads, a bunch of forgefiends and helbrutes. Anyway my Necron army was a mix of warriors, destroyers and monolith so i was doing all i could to keep his cultists from swarming me. But then he goes and pulls a CP that lets him remove a cultist squad that was nearly demolished and deep strike it as a full replenished unit behind my lines.

Let's just say my Necrons would of cried if they could, as they thought they were making progress. And made me feel quite inadequate with only getting a couple re-rolls for my command points at that point.


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ĆON
post Aug 22 2017, 08:24 AM
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A lot of the new codex stratagems can only be used on certain units (3 Predators near each other, a whirlwind and a land speeder, or in that case, units of cultists.)

The army has to be built to take advantage of them and they use up precious command points. Yes, your Necrons can only really use them for rerolls at the moment, but sometimes a single reroll is all it takes.

Not allowing an army to use rerolls is like asking a player to skip their psychic phase because you didn't take a psyker.

Also, WH Community have said that they are aware of the possible imbalance and that's why they are speeding out the codexes.


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Krefey
post Aug 22 2017, 09:28 AM
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I'm with Aeon on this one. It can imbalance things to start with, but as more codexes get released, that will become less of an issue.


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Chaplain_Fortis
post Aug 22 2017, 04:57 PM
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They don't seem that op. They're certainly good but they are mostly once a game plays. If you lose a game because of 150ish points of cultists then it was close enough to be a decent game.


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Khysanth
post Aug 22 2017, 05:23 PM
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There was no win or loss, the game is on pause. It was obvious he based his list around the cultists being a major firepower soak, and with the idea that he could always CP another unit to ensure they make it into close combat. It was the only CP he used thus far so I'm also sure he was saving them possibly for other good stratagems available to him.

I was merely pointing out that to me it seemed unbalanced since he had options to swing the battle, compared to someone fielding an army without a codex.

We have the common stratagems in the Core Rules both can use so I wouldn't even be suggesting to not use CP if that is what you think I meant Aeon. But if armies were reversed I'd tell my opponent I'll only use the common stratagems available to both, until both players have access to theirs.


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QUOTE(waxsir @ Feb 25 2007, 01:01 AM) *
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Waaagh!!!
post Aug 23 2017, 10:09 AM
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If your necrons are struggling against cultists, I think you need to rethink your list/strategy.

This post has been edited by Waaagh!!!: Aug 23 2017, 10:10 AM
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Demon
post Aug 23 2017, 12:02 PM
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Have you tried killing the cultists


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Blackhearts Reaver
post Aug 23 2017, 01:06 PM
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you need more Wraiths/Flayed ones/scarabs and destroyer lords


If you go and have read of the development of Command points it was concious decision to make some of the 7th ed power multipliers into 1 off bonuses.

I think it has worked. Fun stuff that used at the right moment in a game can turn it in your favour but not the crazy of 6-7th ed powerful unit magnification from list the design stage.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Aug 23 2017, 05:43 PM


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Khysanth
post Aug 23 2017, 06:39 PM
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Ok, first of all this was like my 2nd game of 8th ed and prior to this I hadn't played in like 5 years... It was also my first ever game playing as Necrons. Yes of course I can rethink the list, and/or my gameplay strategy. It wasn't an overly balanced list to begin with.

Both the decision to play a 2k game, and the choice to play Necrons was made within 10 minutes before the game started. I figured with nearly 60 warriors (3x 18units), buffed by a couple of overlord's for 2+ hitting, and a cryptek for 5+ invul it would be a solid base to work with. With points spare, I figured I needed some AT so I added 6 Destroyers and 3 Heavy's (3 units mixed), and figured a Monolith would surely add some destruction. There's 2k, quick and easy army to put together and play. (For those that don't know, this is the beauty of online war-gaming as all the models are available to play).

However, what I was asking was whether you thought using command points for game changing strategies is a dog move when your opponent does not have a codex out with their own options; not what necron list would kill 120 cultists (160 with strategem) more efficiently, so he could then focus on the 6 helbrutes, 3 forgefiends, Abaddon and the rest.

Yes I understand GW are pushing to get the rest of the codex's out. But until then, would you choose to play your SM, Chaos, or GK stratagems in a game knowing your Necron, Tau, Tyranid, Eldar opponent doesn't have them too, or not?


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QUOTE(waxsir @ Feb 25 2007, 01:01 AM) *
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Mango
post Aug 23 2017, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE(Khysanth @ Aug 23 2017, 06:09 PM) *

However, what I was asking was whether you thought using command points for game changing strategies is a dog move when your opponent does not have a codex out with their own options;


Nope.

Gamers have been playing 'old/no codex vs new codex' for decades, I played the entirety of 2nd edition using the 2 page basic army list for squats because a codex never eventuated smile.gif

Asking someone to not use their codex simply because you are still waiting for yours is pretty lame.
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post Aug 23 2017, 08:00 PM
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Yeah I reckon strategems are worth a bit. but they are not game breaking. In the age of 9" deploy away deploys no instant death and tougher vehicles you just have to learn the trade offs, stalling tactics and move a turn earlier.

Basic necrons are probably temted to turtle up in a corner with 4-5 aura effects but you need to play them more offensively and like the new Tau (which is like the 2002 Tau) tidally..... Blocking and sacrifice, retreat from combat if you have survived to block again.

Tide high tide low till they get closer. Then throw way a unit (high tide) while the rest of your army low tides them.... when they try an jump you they end up Face first in the mud flats..... You can't do that if you start near a board edge.

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Aug 24 2017, 09:31 AM


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Demon
post Aug 24 2017, 08:26 AM
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QUOTE(Khysanth @ Aug 23 2017, 06:39 PM) *

Yes I understand GW are pushing to get the rest of the codex's out. But until then, would you choose to play your SM, Chaos, or GK stratagems in a game knowing your Necron, Tau, Tyranid, Eldar opponent doesn't have them too, or not?


Yeah I reckon so. Or more appropriately I'd play against them without any real issues.





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Waaagh!!!
post Aug 24 2017, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE(Mango @ Aug 23 2017, 07:19 PM) *

Nope.

Gamers have been playing 'old/no codex vs new codex' for decades, I played the entirety of 2nd edition using the 2 page basic army list for squats because a codex never eventuated smile.gif

Asking someone to not use their codex simply because you are still waiting for yours is pretty lame.


+1

My chaos and ork armies spent years getting smashed by almost every codex around. It's about time I get a chance to stand at the top for a bit.

This post has been edited by Waaagh!!!: Aug 24 2017, 10:36 AM
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Emperor Fooble
post Aug 24 2017, 12:54 PM
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I've played many games with the new marines codex and honestly, 90% of the stategems are very meh. Needing either specific units or requiring a substamtial sacrifice.
Linebreaker bombardment? Needs 3 living vindicators to sacrifice their shooting to use an ability. (405pts wasted)
Orbital bombardment needs a ridiculous amount of luck to pull off anything significant.

Only auspex scan, flak missile, hellfire rounds and flamecraft see regular use.

The chaos dex has some crazy things though, ive fought enough double shooting deredeo dreadnoughts and 10 combi weapon terminators shooting twice for 40 plasma shots to feel gimped.

This post has been edited by Emperor Fooble: Aug 24 2017, 12:55 PM


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post Aug 24 2017, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE(Emperor Fooble @ Aug 24 2017, 12:54 PM) *

I've played many games with the new marines codex and honestly, 90% of the stategems are very meh. Needing either specific units or requiring a substamtial sacrifice.
Linebreaker bombardment? Needs 3 living vindicators to sacrifice their shooting to use an ability. (405pts wasted)
Orbital bombardment needs a ridiculous amount of luck to pull off anything significant.

Only auspex scan, flak missile, hellfire rounds and flamecraft see regular use.

The chaos dex has some crazy things though, ive fought enough double shooting deredeo dreadnoughts and 10 combi weapon terminators shooting twice for 40 plasma shots to feel gimped.


I dunno. The chapter master one is pretty decent.


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Waaagh!!!
post Aug 28 2017, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE(Emperor Fooble @ Aug 24 2017, 12:54 PM) *


The chaos dex has some crazy things though, ive fought enough double shooting deredeo dreadnoughts and 10 combi weapon terminators shooting twice for 40 plasma shots to feel gimped.


How is the deredeo firing twice? Endless Cacophony only applies to slaanesh infantry and bike units. Or is there a different stratagem?

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post Aug 28 2017, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE(Waaagh!!! @ Aug 28 2017, 02:31 PM) *

How is the deredeo firing twice? Endless Cacophony only applies to slaanesh infantry and bike units. Or is there a different stratagem?


Fire Frenzy.

Dreads all got 'helbrute' added by the faq's


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Waaagh!!!
post Aug 28 2017, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE(Demon @ Aug 28 2017, 02:56 PM) *

Fire Frenzy.

Dreads all got 'helbrute' added by the faq's


Nice. Which FAQ was that in?

*edit*

Found it.

This post has been edited by Waaagh!!!: Aug 28 2017, 03:35 PM
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post Aug 28 2017, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE(Khysanth @ Aug 23 2017, 06:39 PM) *
Yes I understand GW are pushing to get the rest of the codex's out. But until then, would you choose to play your SM, Chaos, or GK stratagems in a game knowing your Necron, Tau, Tyranid, Eldar opponent doesn't have them too, or not?


Short Answer - YES

Long Answer - Yes again when you choose to play a game of 40,000 you play it warts and all. That means ALL its baggage, taxs, min/maxing, cheese lists the whole swag of skulduggery.

You can't cry foul at this level of imbalance since its a relatively minor one in the overall scheme of what you may see and especially not in a social game. IF and only IF it was a competitive sheep stations on the line tournameant then yeah maybe but at that point then the respective TO/s would have made clear already IF this was a point of contention and rule for or against already.

I'm pretty happy they (GW) have an active social media liaison team again and they are actively looking at balance overall so yeah the warts are less warty then ever before for this particular system.

This post has been edited by VisOne: Aug 28 2017, 03:38 PM


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post Aug 29 2017, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE(Demon @ Aug 28 2017, 02:56 PM) *

Fire Frenzy.

Dreads all got 'helbrute' added by the faq's


Does that apply to FW ones? I'm guessing so


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