QM 1 Thanks Thread, Plus the inevitable discussions...... Options

[fofjunior]

Many thanks to those that gave of their time to help organise and run the tournament - greatly appreciated.

Well one very big up and down tournament for my first venture with GK's. Not too sure whether I will stick with them. I might have to ask the scotsman for some tips!

To my opponents - I would happily play you all again for various reasons. My appologies to Adrian (Rd 5) - that was a poor match, played badly by myself - hope to give you a better game next time, although I'm sure you enjoyed the 20pts It was a good lesson though in playing styles which I'm sure will help me improve next time.

In regards to comp - you can't please everyone so perhaps Breezy has a point (lets be cranky at non-queenslanders). Mine I think was probably close to being spot on but I did hear a lot of grumbles - more than last time

[horus]

Pm sent

[sheep]

Thanks to robs dn Aaron for a generally thankless task, there are clearly some problems especially for the more competitive players, I don't know or care about what my comp was this weekend, I came for fun and drinking.

Either way I look forward to seeing you all next time.

Btw, eat a dick breezey, one god damn guardian! Op lawn dart was a one off buddy

[therottenlord]

Hell I didn't attend QM but big hand to the lads for keeping the tourney going and sacrificing their time to offer a great outlet for community gaming. One of these days I may end up making the trip up from the coast to play in one. Well done Rob and Aaron keep up the awesome work.

[SneakyDan]

Thanks to Rob and Arron for putting on another good weekend. Thank you to the gents I played, I would hope to have a game with again.
Until next time see you at no comp QM2.
To those that know back from Marter Children's with bub and he is sleeping now temps down, fingers crossed he is over the worst. Not a great first birthday for the little lad, but he is a fighter.

Glad to hear it mate.

[john001]

had a good time, thanks all.

First time, ever, in a billion years I didnt vs marines or guard every game

Nids
Tau
######wing ahem deathwing
Daemons
Dark elder

all awsome games

Fanks.

[YogoZuno]

maybe its time to try give self marked comp a go

I believe that is part of the problem - people do assess their own comp, and then perceive a problem when the comp panel doesn't give them that score.

I believe another part of the problem is that those playing in non-comp or comp-light environments seem to score lists higher than others, in general, as they are used to seeing and facing harder lists. This means they expect higher scores than others give out for their own hard lists.

The simple solution for this problem is sent the panel comp marking out of state.

I'm glad you're thinking about this at least, Breezey. Others seem to post without so much consideration. However, I used an out-of-state panel for the first Orkfest I ran, and the complaints were very high. Different meta-environments lead to different perceptions of the power of a list. I think staying with locals is a better idea.

Anyway, enough rambling from someone who isn't TOing this event - roll on QM2.

[Seven Nation Army]

Idea for food at the tourney. I have always had a bit of a gripe with the food prices at the tourney. They are the kind of prices that you would expect to see at a corpoate owned service station, not at an event where everyone is good mates. So rather than just bitching about it, I propose a solution...

Sausage sizzle

Its got everything you want. Its cheap, its easy to cook and with just a regular size bbq you can cook for 10-20 people at a time speeding up the service time at the peak period at lunch break. At $2 for a sausage, bread, onion and sauce you will still clear at least $1 per unit making it cheap for us and still profitable for the organisers. And judging by the waistline size of the average gamer, you know we can pack away our fair share of sausages

You could even look at making an option of paying a little extra for tickets and including lunch for both days that way. I would also take a look at the price of the rest of the food. I know myself and some of the other boys there would much rather buy from you guys than having to go to the woolies down the road because we'd prefer to see the TO's get something out of the tourney and mainly coz we're a bunch of lazy c***s that would rather not have to drive. Aldi sells 12pk 600ml water at $7.99 *cough* shameless plug *cough* which makes it 67c per unit. At $2 a piece you still clear over $1.30 per unit.

Rather than saying 'just dont buy it', there is a way to make both the gamers happier with the food prices at the tourney AND make it even more profitable for the organisers. Win/win situation.

[difsta]

haven't yet been to a QM, QM2 will pop my QM virginity
regarding the bbq idea, I ran an event down in Melbourne a couple of weekends back, what we had was a bbq where players could come and pay during the round, give their table number and a helper brought the food to their table. This went down really well... just a thought

[Eltnot]

I believe they had sausages on bread for $2 or $2.50 from memory.

[horus]

you know pat can pack away a fair share of sausages.

Fixed

[Chevynova]

So some people have asked me to share my thoughts and since I seem to be a bit of an example of what went wrong with comp, I will.

First of all I would like to thank the organisers for giving up their time to run the event. It is appreciated, even if I have some criticisms of how some things are handled.

In my opinion, comp was marked incorrectly across the field (not everyone, but enough to make it an issue). I know the immediate response to this is that I’m a comp whinger for even daring to say so, but I would like to point out that I’ve never said to an organiser or panel before that they’ve marked an army of mine incorrectly. I’ve asked panels for feedback occasionally, but never said that they’ve made major errors. This time, I think it should be said.

For those that don’t know me, I play 40k tournaments almost every month (all the majors, store tournaments run at ACE Comics and some interstate tournaments like High Lords, Cancon and the ATC). I’ve also been on comp panels for both Qld tournaments (including QM) and Cancon as well, so I feel relatively confident in my ability to mark comp pretty close to the mark.

I did approach the panel members at QM with my concerns as I don’t believe in waiting until ‘keyboard warrior’ stage to have a say if it can’t be said face to face. I’d like to thank the panel members for listening to what I had to say to them. Some responses, however, I found disappointing.

The first was the almost mandatory, “You’re looking at your list through rose-coloured glasses”. I can categorically say that I’m not. Rose-coloured tinting on a list gives a small difference in perceived comp scores, not 2-3 point difference per panel member. Since I’m the example cited, I got 18/40 and the list is at the end of the post. According to QM criteria, that makes my list slightly harder than the average tournament army (20/40). The only people I’ve met who believe that are the 4 panel members. I’d never argue an overall point difference of (around) 5 points as that is where the rose coloured glasses come from – a small difference in opinion between panel members and the player. I’d also point out that it’s not primarily my opinion of my list that it is a 6-7/8. I’ve asked quite a few others who’ve been on panel before, played the codex and against the codex extensively, both here in Qld and interstate – it’s not a case of rose-coloured glasses.

The other response was that because it’s a different panel we should all just accept that there are different opinions. This is something I struggle to come to terms with. A regular event like Quartermaster needs consistency. If I take a 6/8 list to one QM panel marked comp, the next panel should be giving a similar mark to that list. I can’t come at the idea that the softest list at this tournament was a 25/40 and the last QM was 36/40 (from memory, I might be a point or two out). I don’t think the overall lists at this QM were harder than last. The only thing that should change the comp ‘level’ is newer codexes, faq’s etc changing the meta.

One thing that irritates me a fair bit, was the effect of the ‘gentlemen’s agreement’. There was a large effort on the part of quite a few people to soften their usual lists. This was talked about online with people putting up their lists for others to critique. In some cases there was a lot of back and forth to get an actual softer list (some struggled with the changing of a few minor things and not the overall punch of the list). If we were all so off the mark, I would have thought the panel members could have spoken up well before the tournament to tell these blokes that so they could have modified their lists accordingly. Based off this panel, there’s no point to these guys doing it if they are going to be shafted by panel. All this QM has done is promoting harder lists to be brought.

I haven’t been this annoyed by a tournament since the last Triparil B. I hope QM doesn’t go the same way, but I will be voting with my feet for the next few. I know some will say it should just be enough to get 5 games in, but I don’t drive 3-4 hours a day to a tournament just for games, I can do that at home.

HQ
Archon – Phantasm grenade launcher, shadow field – 115 pts
Haemonculus – webway portal – 80 pts

Elites
Kabalite Trueborn – x 5, 4 x blasters – 120 pts
Venom – 2 x splinter cannons – 65 pts
Incubi – x7 – 154 pts
Raider – 60 pts

Troops
Wracks – x 5, liquefier, acothyst – 70 pts
Raider
Wyches – x 15, 3 x hydra gauntlets, haywire grenades, hekatrix – 220 pts
Wyches – x 15, 3 x hydra gauntlets – 190 pts
Warriors – x 20, 2 x dark lances, sybarite – 240 pts

Fast Attack
Reaver jetbikes – x 6, 2 x heat lances

Heavy Support
Talos – twin haywire launcher – 105 pts
Ravager – flickerfields – 115

[Sarge501st]

Thanks TOs for a good weekend of gaming. Pretty happy with my Comp score even if I dont understand how it works. Some really good looking armies there.

Also Rob can I get some feedback off my army paint score just what missed out on please. Name was Phillip Johnson and my army was Urban Imperial Guard.

Cheers
SARGE

[Blackhearts Reaver]

As the instigator of the "Gentleman's Agreement" to soften the lists of the better players, I was dissapointed that the Comp from the panel was a little compressed.

From a basic look at the results the comp was only from about 11-24 out of 40. I would expect a variance of around 8 to 33 out of 40. The compression of the comp scores basically negated what was trying to be achieved: softening the overall lists so beginners and hobbyist's are encouraged to come to all of the (comped) QM's instead of just the odd one.

Obviously the Panel were erring on the side of caution when marking, but it has had a profound effect.


I will be persisting with the "Gentleman's agreement". I hope others will too. I have put myself forward as a panel marker for the the next (comped) QM3. I will be endevouring to bring to the panel a wide understanding of all codex and trick and traps. I have 18 years experience playing have every codex, and have played at least one variation of every army at some point. I have played against excellent opponents, here in QLD and interstate.

I hope that will encourage others to keep at softer comp, for the sake of building the comunity here in QLD.

I am happy to submit my own list online (here?) to be comped by the masses who are willing to mark it. So there is not conflict of interest.

Stacy

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Feb 20 2012, 03:27 PM

[insaniak]

Well, I had a blast. Enjoyed all 5 games, even if they didn't all go my way...

I'll confess to not really much caring how Comp is determined, but that may be in large part the result of not having any real expectation of doing well to begin with. Mark Comp hard, or mark it easy, I'm still not likely to place


Before Auscon last year, my previous tournament experience was from 2nd edition before comp even existed... so I am curious to see how much of a difference there is in the sort of armies that show up to QMII. I can't help wondering if all the fuss over comp judging is really worth the hassle.

[Onehandedorgy]

had a good time, thanks all.

First time, ever, in a billion years I didnt vs marines or guard every game

Nids
Tau
######wing ahem deathwing
Daemons
Dark elder

all awsome games

Fanks.

Well i got them all.

Black templars
Imperial fists
Grey knights
Guard
Grey knights

Then people wonder why i hate them all. Fricken marines.

@Wes Had to didn't you?

@Stacey. I will always endeavour to bring softer lists nowadays. Always trying to aim for a 5/8.(except no comp. I'm going to bring a c$%@ stomp army) Anyways it was as always a smooth tournament. Thanks to rob and aaron for a well run tournament.

And comp did seem to screw a few people over. Blairy definately comes to mind. A bit sad to think that people tried to tone it down only for someone to come across and screw them over. Anyways i'll be back next one with a much, much, much harder necron list.

[Copper Head]

For those of you who dont. I am Aaron the other TO from the Weekend.

Ok normally I don’t get involved with these discussions, as I have never complained or cared about my comp score.

I will be the first to admit that we had some issues with the final comp score. And I will also tell you all that we are planning on fixing this for QM 3.

The original panel from last year as stepped aside due to the continuous complains there had received all the other QMs. Now they are gone you all won’t them back. Will tuff S*%t, that is not going to happen. You complained too much then.

As for the people that are saying they aren’t coming back due to the problems, does anyone remember QM 1 – the first one 2 years ago, when there were large problems, everyone kicked up a stink and said “ I’m not coming to QM again.” Will over 2 years on and it is still going well. The problems where addressed and people kept coming.

Now not everyone is a keyboard warrior, and that too me is the best thing that has come out of this. On the second day of the comp, after some people had thought about their comp scores and other issues, they came to me or Rob and told us that they were not happy and why. This was five guys that I consider to be easier in the top 10 in Queensland.

By coming to us with their issues in person is gave me the chance to explain thing in a straight forward manor. I also put it to them to make suggestion in ways of fixing the problems for QM3 and also offering to help in the future.

Hopefully those conversations helped, and made these players not wont to give up and walk off p@ss$d off and never come back.

I would like to thank those guys for that. And hopefully we can let this issue move on and improve it for the need comped QM.

Also even though being a TO is a thankless task and you get a lot of s*&t thrown in your direction, I still don’t mind doing it, because I do it for the game I love playing.

Always remember it is still a game.
See you all at QM 2

[westwood]

For those of you who dont. I am Aaron the other TO from the Weekend.

Ok normally I don’t get involved with these discussions, as I have never complained or cared about my comp score.

I will be the first to admit that we had some issues with the final comp score. And I will also tell you all that we are planning on fixing this for QM 3.

The original panel from last year as stepped aside due to the continuous complains there had received all the other QMs. Now they are gone you all won’t them back. Will tuff S*%t, that is not going to happen. You complained too much then.

As for the people that are saying they aren’t coming back due to the problems, does anyone remember QM 1 – the first one 2 years ago, when there were large problems, everyone kicked up a stink and said “ I’m not coming to QM again.” Will over 2 years on and it is still going well. The problems where addressed and people kept coming.

Now not everyone is a keyboard warrior, and that too me is the best thing that has come out of this. On the second day of the comp, after some people had thought about their comp scores and other issues, they came to me or Rob and told us that they were not happy and why. This was five guys that I consider to be easier in the top 10 in Queensland.

By coming to us with their issues in person is gave me the chance to explain thing in a straight forward manor. I also put it to them to make suggestion in ways of fixing the problems for QM3 and also offering to help in the future.

Hopefully those conversations helped, and made these players not wont to give up and walk off p@ss$d off and never come back.

I would like to thank those guys for that. And hopefully we can let this issue move on and improve it for the need comped QM.

Also even though being a TO is a thankless task and you get a lot of s*&t thrown in your direction, I still don’t mind doing it, because I do it for the game I love playing.

Always remember it is still a game.
See you all at QM 2

Sorry if you thought I was being mean.

I'm still going to be a ###### stirrer, so just take it like a man and bend over.

Seriously though, thanks for helping Rob run it. He's such a spaz.

[glynaynsley]

I might as well add something.

I've never thought that the comp scores for a tourny as a whole have ever been off that much, and admit to having a lack of understanding of everything that every army can throw.

But the comp for the last QM had some pretty big inconsistencies. Looking through the results I found that all the GK lists were relatively around the mark they should have received (mine included), SM's where a little over the place with what I thought was the hardest SM list getting one of the higher comp scores of the tourny (have played enough space marines to have an understanding of them). DE also seemed to get hit quite hard, and having played against them for the last 6 months know there strengths.

As one of the major tournies that has been going for a while, people expect a certain level that they can base future experience off and I think that's why a lot of people where upset, the standard comp level had been thrown off by quite a lot for some armies.

Thanks for putting on the event guys and always enjoy coming to these events to play the brisbane, rocky and lismore guys.

I will continue to run with the gentleman's agreement.