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> Need This SW Army Comp'ed - Be Critical Please, Army List 2 (1500pts)
Gorechilds Protege
post Mar 21 2012, 12:54 AM
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Title says it all really:

WGBL BP+CCW, 2 FW's - 90pts

Lone Wolf BP+CCW, 2 FW's - 40pts
Lone Wolf BP+CCW, 2 FW's - 40pts
Lone Wolf BP+CCW, 2 FW's - 40pts

10 GH's 1 Flamer 1 MG - 150pts
10 GH's 1 Flamer 1 MG - 150pts
5 GH's Flamer - 75pts
5 GH's Flamer - 75pts
5 GH's Flamer - 75pts
5 GH's Flamer - 75pts

9 Swiftclaws 1 Attack Bike - 255pts
9 Swiftclaws 1 Attack Bike - 255pts
10 Skyclaws - 180pts

Total = 1500pts
Models = 82

P.S. Fiddling with things I have for something different and not overpowered, am genuinely curious to know what comp scores people will give the army lists as it'll help guide what I get assembled/fixed for tourney play till my main army project (the venerable Rainbow Warriors!) is completed.

Edit to correct the number of models in the army i.e. 82 not 87. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Gorechilds Protege: Mar 21 2012, 08:18 PM


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QUOTE(Starfire @ Aug 18 2012, 07:22 PM) *

But seriously, I'm amazed by just how little GP has written. On a scale of 1 to Gorechild's Protege, this is nothing. It's like a Heavy Incinerator with which you've just rolled a 1 to wound.


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QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Mar 21 2012, 10:40 AM) *

All of these things just smash you unforgivingly and theres nothing you can do to stop them. Its completely stupid to take this army the way it is, you will degfinately lose every game no matter how good you are.


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john001
post Mar 21 2012, 08:59 AM
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Id happily give this a 8-9/10 or a 4.5/5 whichever method your looking at.

Will struggle immensly to win games.
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Paddlepop Lion
post Mar 21 2012, 09:40 AM
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im assuming that theres several meltas on the swiftclaws and the skyclaws.

I would give this a 5/5


you completely fold to a land raider, 1 land raider means you just about automatically lose.

You cant kill any mech at all so more than 2 rhinos and you automatically lose any objective game. probably even kill points because they can be used as walls.

Any more than 5 terminators with feel no pain automatically beat you.


you have no answer to mephiston or abaddon or logan or prince Yriel or the swarm lord or a trygon or a CARNIFEX or a drednought or a wriathlord or gazkul.
All of these things just smash you unforgivingly and theres nothing you can do to stop them. Its completely stupid to take this army the way it is, you will degfinately lose every game no matter how good you are.

Change the list to not be a bunch of deliberately bad choices.
Eg, flamers should never, ever be taken on walking infantry. Change them all to plasma guns or melta guns.
Put a banner on both 10 man units and get some wolf guard into every unit.

Take at least power weapons on the battle leader and the lone wolves. That way they might accomplish something in a game.

You will still get a 4 or a 4.5 for comp but you wont automatically lose to anything better than vespid

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difsta
post Mar 21 2012, 09:44 AM
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not sure how this plays, but doesn't seem to have much guts. 2 melta guns, and that is it for your anti tank. And they are walking. Might do ok against horde with all the flamers and the number of attacks available on the charge with the skyclaws and swiftclaws.

looks like a 4/5 - 4.5/5 for me.


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Paddlepop Lion
post Mar 21 2012, 09:59 AM
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are you kidding me 4/5? it has a bunch of flamers but there WALKING so they never get to shoot anything.
This army would maybe do OK against horde if all the army has is horde but when have you ever seen an army of only termingants or only only ork boys?

Orks with a single killer can is now horde + an unstoppable beast that rapes the SW army.

IG horde rapes it unforgivingly and doesnt even need to do anything but shoot lasguns not that it isnt toting a bucket load of power weapons and meltas.

Nid horde will force the SW to never leave the area terrain and even then a single trygon will destroy the whole army.

Eldar horde will just shoot its ass off the table and a wraithlord or an avatar will smash the crap out of anything it touches.

I know that nobody gives 5s but thats because nobody takes lists that crumble to a single decent choice.
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Gorechilds Protege
post Mar 21 2012, 10:12 AM
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[quote name='Paddlepop Lion' date='Mar 21 2012, 10:40 AM' post='1949635']
im assuming that theres several meltas on the swiftclaws and the skyclaws.[/quote]


None, naked base weapons, HB on the Attack Bikes.

[quote]I would give this a 5/5
you completely fold to a land raider, 1 land raider means you just about automatically lose. [/quote]


BS I lose. 1 land raider can kill what? 5 or 6 guys a turn if lucky? more like 2-3 when cover is factored into it. Also, 1 land raider only really becomes an issue in objective missions and then I just give up a single objective as you park the LR on it. Big fracking whoop.

[quote]You cant kill any mech at all so more than 2 rhinos and you automatically lose any objective game. probably even kill points because they can be used as walls.[/quote]

Bolters can kill av 10, rhinos have av 10 and marines are str 4 base.

More, I can deal with up to av 12.

oh, you don't know that space marines regardless of the codex have frag and krak grenades standard? Wow. I guess we can't rate krak grenades enmass at all then.

If my opponent decides to drop a rhino mounted unit on an objective and I get the surround, it may take a round or two but those vehicles will fall (a 4 glances a 5 or 6 pens with krak nades vs av 10 cause you know, rear armour in combat and all) and as you have no exit, the unit inside dies completely automatically, so that's too funny. Considering you have 20 bikers and 10 jump infantry that can engage like that really fast (ever seen a wall get hit across the front and had jump infantry hit the rear and then it all explode and the infantry inside all just auto die? Granted it won't be as reliable with this list but that does happen), do I still have no response to armour?

[quote]Any more than 5 terminators with feel no pain automatically beat you.[/quote]

No. they don't. Nothng automatically beats anything, T 8 and above screws me, hello Wraithlords, anything else can be torrented, granted it's a lot of torrenting, but that's okay.

[quote]you have no answer to mephiston or abaddon or logan or prince Yriel or the swarm lord or a trygon or a CARNIFEX or a drednought or a wriathlord or gazkul.[/quote]

lol.

Actually, in the list there are tools that can deal with all of these things. It may take a few turns, but they are there.

Your statement is over-exaggerated.

[quote]
All of these things just smash you unforgivingly and theres nothing you can do to stop them. Its completely stupid to take this army the way it is, you will degfinately lose every game no matter how good you are.[/quote]


This is awesome.

[quote]Change the list to not be a bunch of deliberately bad choices. [/quote]


Grey Hunters are bad choices now? Crap, I better take some Blood Claws!

[quote]Eg, flamers should never, ever be taken on walking infantry.[quote]

Considering all infantry except jump infantry walks there seems to be a flaw in your logic here.

I know you mean transports, but transports can't be relied on in this day and age.

[quote]Change them all to plasma guns or melta guns.
Put a banner on both 10 man units and get some wolf guard into every unit.[/quote]


Costs points.

[quote]Take at least power weapons on the battle leader and the lone wolves. That way they might accomplish something in a game.[/quote]

Hey, they have epic style, that's pretty cool as an in game accomplishment. They also make a nice cover/bubble wrap for a good chunk of the army (the Lone Wolves I mean).

[quote]You will still get a 4 or a 4.5 for comp but you wont automatically lose to anything better than vespid
[/quote]


hang on a second...but yous aid above:

[quote]Its completely stupid to take this army the way it is, you will degfinately lose every game no matter how good you are.[/quote]

So...what is it? I can beat some stuff or I can't? Contradicting yourself is a great way to void anything you say in a comment. tongue.gif


[quote]difsta:
not sure how this plays, but doesn't seem to have much guts. 2 melta guns, and that is it for your anti tank. And they are walking. Might do ok against horde with all the flamers and the number of attacks available on the charge with the skyclaws and swiftclaws.

looks like a 4/5 - 4.5/5 for me.[/quote]


Krak Grenades. There's potentially 74 of them in the list. 30 of which can be in your face turn 2. Anti-heavy tank maybe , but how many tanks have av 13 or 14 on all facings?

Cheers for the feedback guys, looking forwards to more.

NB: Edit fixed quotations making them a different colour and itallics - too many quotes breaks the quote function, lol.

This post has been edited by Gorechilds Protege: Mar 21 2012, 10:16 AM


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QUOTE(Starfire @ Aug 18 2012, 07:22 PM) *

But seriously, I'm amazed by just how little GP has written. On a scale of 1 to Gorechild's Protege, this is nothing. It's like a Heavy Incinerator with which you've just rolled a 1 to wound.


"Don't try to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors, try to be better than yourself." - Faulkner.

QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Mar 21 2012, 10:40 AM) *

All of these things just smash you unforgivingly and theres nothing you can do to stop them. Its completely stupid to take this army the way it is, you will degfinately lose every game no matter how good you are.


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Gorechilds Protege
post Mar 21 2012, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Mar 21 2012, 10:59 AM) *

are you kidding me 4/5? it has a bunch of flamers but there WALKING so they never get to shoot anything.


I have bolters and Bolt pistols, I also have them on bike mounts (twin-linked so they end up being better then the GH's for accuracy too!) and Jump Packs as well. Flamers? get over the special weapons, who cares about the flamers, they were free.

QUOTE
I know that nobody gives 5s but thats because nobody takes lists that crumble to a single decent choice.


I got 5's for this list:

5/5 for comp yeah, fun army won a few games too.


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QUOTE(Starfire @ Aug 18 2012, 07:22 PM) *

But seriously, I'm amazed by just how little GP has written. On a scale of 1 to Gorechild's Protege, this is nothing. It's like a Heavy Incinerator with which you've just rolled a 1 to wound.


"Don't try to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors, try to be better than yourself." - Faulkner.

QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Mar 21 2012, 10:40 AM) *

All of these things just smash you unforgivingly and theres nothing you can do to stop them. Its completely stupid to take this army the way it is, you will degfinately lose every game no matter how good you are.


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difsta
post Mar 21 2012, 10:46 AM
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flamers on walking marines is not the best option as paddlepop says. As you wont get to them any time. I understand that it is free, but a bolt gun on some of them might be better smile.gif On the skyclaws or swiftclaws it would be ok.
You do actually auto lose against a land raider list in draw hammer. He just drives the land raider at you and then castles on his.
Why 6 scoring units walking? Could you not make it 5 and use the points to buff up other units? take some meltas or something?
It really depends on what you are trying to do here. Most armies should actually just beat this. Yes it is marine horde, but it is marine horde that doesn't do anything but shoot bolters, hope to roll well on krak grenades.

If you make combat with a big enough chunk, it is a few attacks, but one single unit can make a wall, you kill that unit and you continue to get shot or counter charged.


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Paddlepop Lion
post Mar 21 2012, 11:20 AM
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A land raider is not just a land raider, its a tank that you cant kill with a ball of death inside that it can unleash a horrible multi charge on you. If its 5 storm shield terminators then you dont care but if its feel no pain terminators, berzerkers, BA assault marines, death company, plague marines, DCA, paladins the list goes on, then it causes a huge beating that can cripple or destroy an entire flank.
If you dont have any meltas left on that side of the table they can get back in and do it again.


bolters and krak nades CAN kill tanks but they are terrible answers. Hitting on 6s then penning on 5s with squads of 10 nades is shocking odds man. It not only cant be relied on if thats your game plan then your going to lose.

QUOTE

lol.

Actually, in the list there are tools that can deal with all of these things. It may take a few turns, but they are there.

Your statement is over-exaggerated.


What are those answers? more marines?
You have no power fists you have no invulnerable saves, your only way to slow them down is to try and bog them down when they are carving through half a unit per round.

By themselves no one of these guys will actually kill your whole army but they will require your whole army to deal with the problem they make. Seriously think about how you plan to kill mephiston. he kills 6 men per round, is faster than you by far, you wound him on 6s and he save them on 2s he has 5 wounds. just do the maths for a second thats 270 bolter shots or 360 attacks at S4. now give him feel no pain from a sang priest in a land raider... those 3 models alone would kill your whole army long before you killed him.
All the others are not far off as hard given they can join units. Whats your answer?

QUOTE
So...what is it? I can beat some stuff or I can't? Contradicting yourself is a great way to void anything you say in a comment.


Actually i said the way you presented it the army will lose every game.

with the suggestions i made you have answers to a few of the extremely common, normal choices for comp armies that would otherwise ravage you.

paying more attention than a skim read might do you well.



If you want to lose then run this army, at least you will get full sports just cause your opponent felt sorry that you couldnt possibly win but you wanted critical
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neil
post Mar 21 2012, 11:23 AM
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This is an unbalanced army.

Against antyhign with mor ethan about 2 vehicles, you just lose. Doubly so if there's say, a Dreadnaught amongst them.

Against balanced foot lists, you get to just win, because you didn't bother spending points on anti tank - just efficient anti-infantry

I think wildly unbalanced lists are not what comp is meant to encourage, so I give you 0/10 tongue.gif


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john001
post Mar 21 2012, 01:02 PM
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cant believe this army is being defended.

It is terrible, utterly utterly terrible, even if your dice automaticcaly rolled 6's it will loose.

Enjoy the comp ride, but dont go in with a hope of winning games.
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Buddha
post Mar 21 2012, 01:15 PM
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This thread is pretty funny.
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ArchonCryx
post Mar 21 2012, 01:29 PM
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Buddha - it is isn't it. I love how almost everyone has ignored GPs stated intention of seeking a high comp build using SW!

I also enjoy reading the folks rabbiting on about killing Land Raiders but if GP's lining up 20 GHs with 2 M-Gs vs an empty Land Raider, my money's on the Melta...wink.gif

Of course, 3 scoring Land Raider DW army might not be as easy to handle!

GP - Yeah, I prefer this one to the last one you posted. 82 models(I think you added 5 somewhere) is a bit less of a marine horde. Admittedly you've greatly improved your mobility, thus giving you some hope of a fighting chance in a skewed spearhead objective mission or something similar, also Capture and Control when they hide their objective in bottom corner. Not to mention all the other benefits having 3 highly mobile and large squads brings.


You'll need to play very wisely. Anyone with AV13+ in abundance might try to take out the meltas early so they can basically relax about your AT. But you know this, and so won't make it easy for opponent to see them.

I reckon it would score 5/5 from most people. Except neil but I always advocate ignoring his comp advice (at neil tongue.gif) It's definitely at least 9/10 anyway, Im thinking 9/10 myself but would boost that to 5/5 on 5 pt scale if using that.

So I stand corrected, maybe SW can get 5s after all... Might be amusing to watch this take on a razorspam army!

I think it would be fun to play and against. Would love to watch you hold one of the detractors using a hard army to a draw! laugh.gif

This post has been edited by ArchonCryx: Mar 21 2012, 01:39 PM


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Paddlepop Lion
post Mar 21 2012, 01:44 PM
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any book can get a 5, this is not an army its a gaggle of usless retards that are simply not equiped to deal with a ballanced army that contains vehichles, elites or charachters.
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Paddlepop Lion
post Mar 21 2012, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE
I also enjoy reading the folks rabbiting on about killing Land Raiders but if GP's lining up 20 GHs with 2 M-Gs vs an empty Land Raider, my money's on the Melta...


this is retarded the land raider itself is not the threat, its the way it forces a threat down the opponents throat.
You let me run rampant with a land raider like this army would and it will get smashed horribly.
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ArchonCryx
post Mar 21 2012, 02:04 PM
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Matt: No, no I'm not!! So there!! tongue.gif laugh.gif

As you say, certainly there are times when the land raider will practically win the game against this list almost by it self (+ contents)

However it's not quite as cut and dried as you seem to suggest and ot everybody will use the Land Raider squad correctly vs this list. After all, there's no single target the Squad should get rid of and be game-changing.

I think you overstate the threat.

You're not giving enough credit to the flexibility of his list. Nor it's internal redundancy.

GP: Lol, KPs should be a doddle, just send in the lone wolves vs a dreadnought and find a couple of rhinos to kill and you're well ahead!


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Paddlepop Lion
post Mar 21 2012, 04:49 PM
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OK i spose your right, a small percentage of the chromosomally challenged among us might fail to rape him with their land raider full of death.
Anything is possible even being criminally bad at the game.

Kill points is also not a doddle. An army could beat the crap out of this list by simply running away and shooting 5 man squads of which there are 4.


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ArchonCryx
post Mar 21 2012, 05:58 PM
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3 of which can be brough back by suiciding his Lone wolves... I say again, KPs is a doddle (Perhaps a slight exaggeration but yheah)

As for being criminaly bad not all his opponents will be veterans as he gets knocked down the rankings... After all, he might face me!

For the right event (Well comp'd) it's arguably a good choice if he can manage 50% win/draws...


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Gorechilds Protege
post Mar 21 2012, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE(Buddha @ Mar 21 2012, 02:15 PM) *

This thread is pretty funny.


I agree.

I particularly like the idea that there's this unstoppable deathstar in a Land raider that's going to ruin the day of this army. So...1500pts and a 400-600pt death star in a 250pt land raider is half or more of your army at 1500pts. This, i feel has been overlooked. We'll assume I'm not some random seal who will let his 180-255pt units get hit by such a force, which means at best, said death star is wacking into 150pt units. 10% of the army. OR 75pt units, 5% of the army. WOW! HUZZAH! Fun thing about the army as a concept is it's really easy to hide units of 5 guys (go ahead shoot them for easy kill points - usually means coming closer to me, guess whre I need you to be?), 10 is more difficult but still doable. So basically your big unit of ZOMG IT EATS MY POINTS! is gonna chip away at small chunks of the force which as a whole are inconsequential.

As you put it so well Paddlepop Lion:

QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Mar 21 2012, 02:46 PM) *

this is retarded the land raider itself is not the threat, its the way it forces a threat down the opponents throat.
You let me run rampant with a land raider like this army would and it will get smashed horribly.


Which echoes my thoughts before on - ###### the Land Raider, I DON'T CARE. You missed this. Instead you brought up Mephiston who is hey look like 250pts and that land Raider, 250 odd points and a Sanguinary Priest is at least 50 Points so 550pts at 1500pts...which is what? hitting 10% chunks of my army at best more like 5% or less chunks of my army despite being about 35-40% of your own army.

What do these cunning examples of all eggs in one basket tell us? They tell us that i am free to throw almost 50% of my army plus the rest of the army that is slow at your actual army which isn't that big because of all the stupidly excessive points being poured into those big units.

More importantly, indeed most importantly, at 1500pts you are giving examples of a rock hammer army that is two dimensional and very easily destroyed by a strong player with a strong list. I don't know about you, but I run 2 first turn melta drops in all of my SW armies that are more balanced competitively, that Land Raider that is so vaunted gets crippled vs those lists and indeed a great many average comp lists because every man and his dog is packing anti-tank to deal with a mech heavy metagame that is accentuated by 5th edition as a game system. Your hammer deathstar is walmking and torrented tod eath vs those forces and we all know it.

This to me strikes me as fairly pointless - you are yelling about how awesome these units and forces are as counters to this army but you are also using a 2/5 at the most list example for it. We've got an average of a 4.5-5/5 for comp scores on this and we all know that 5 vs 5 is meant to be 50/50 vs 5 vs 4 you lose like 60-70% of the time it's damned hard to beat a 3/5 list a 2/5 list you are getting tabled, 1/5 don't even go there...so really, instead of telling us all this wonderful crap about how a rock hammer army will beat this one up and smash it into the ground, how about you give examples of more average armies that aren't imbalanced in a crap way that most armies out there are going to smash into the ground anyways except for the one sort of army that these death star rocks hard counter? You know, because then we'd actually maybe respect what you were saying instead of laughing at how much you trololololfail Paddlepop Lion.

If you had thought about it, you'd clearly see why I don't care what you are harping on about and why I am ignoring it all. In a tactical situation vs such a list, I feed you small portions of my army, spread it out and hide it like a boss. Come close to me, I don't mind. hey look, you can't get to my deployment zone before my army which all reserved comes in from reserve and just hides, waiting for you to come to me, what if I'm playing an objective game and the objectives are heavily in my half of the board, I can successive layers of bubble wrap board control the field so you can't get at the majority and I win that way or worse case, we draw, there's a lot of crap you simply aren't working into your examples and it's sorta pointless to try and counter you when you don't listen to what people say anyways. Cheers mate.

Got a few games lined up already, gonna be fun.


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QUOTE(Starfire @ Aug 18 2012, 07:22 PM) *

But seriously, I'm amazed by just how little GP has written. On a scale of 1 to Gorechild's Protege, this is nothing. It's like a Heavy Incinerator with which you've just rolled a 1 to wound.


"Don't try to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors, try to be better than yourself." - Faulkner.

QUOTE(Paddlepop Lion @ Mar 21 2012, 10:40 AM) *

All of these things just smash you unforgivingly and theres nothing you can do to stop them. Its completely stupid to take this army the way it is, you will degfinately lose every game no matter how good you are.


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Paddlepop Lion
post Mar 22 2012, 07:58 AM
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I dont know man, maybe you have never played a good player with a land raider or something but you seem to think that you get the choice in what the land raider charges. There is some truth to that when an army can actually kill the land raider, but you cant. It drives around wherever it wants and multi charges whatever it wants.

Im not talking about super hard, imballanced lists or 400-600 pt deathstars. Im talking about normal, ballanced, varied lists with 200 pt or less combat units that can be protected post assault with vehichles you cant kill. It is common place to see these kind of things in a tournament but weather or not they got 2s for comp they still smash you, if you think you can still do ok then ride the comp train. but boy would i love to get served up this feast of naked grey hunters in a tournament with my list which got 3.5/5 last time i played it
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