Vampires discussion and debate, some rules questions, some questions of strategy Options

[possum]

Alright, I'm a long time Undead / Vampire Counts player from waaaaay back (I miss my regiments of Mummies...), but haven't played a huge amount of 8th edition. Being a massive Vampire fan, this may well be the book that gets me back into the game. But I have some questions regarding the new list I'm hoping the brains trust of WAU can help me with.


1) Which general to take? Vampire Lord? Or Necromancer Lord?
In the past (at least since 6th edition anyway), the Vampire was a no brainer. You just had to figure out whether to make him a magic build, a combat build, or a combination of some sort. Now I'm not so sure it's that simple. A full kitted Vampire Lord is very expensive, especially if you want to go a magic build. And I'm thinking that If I go a magic build, that's a lot of redundant points paid for combat abilities that aren't going to generate a maximum return (since ideally he won't be combat too much and will be focused on casting spells most of the time). Same goes for the combination build.

But my experience with 8th edition, and previously with Vampires, is that you really want a strong magic phase, for offence and defense. And that means a level 4 mage of some sort. The Necromancer Lord seems like a cheaper option in this regard. Plus he gives me the option of a Corpse Cart, which is bound to be very useful.

What are people finding is the way to with their General with the new list?


2) The Nightshroud on mounted characters?
Specifically, if I do take a Necromancer Lord, and give him the Nightshroud armour, does the whole model benefit? Or does it only apply to attacks against the Necromancer himself?


3) Skeletons with Hand Weapons? Or Spears?
Previously the HW/Sh combo was a no brainer under 6th/7th edition and the old Parry rules. Now I'm not so sure. I'm not convinced the current Parry rules offer enough survivability to Skeletons, and the extra attacks with Spears could be vital. Plus, the new ION rules seem to make Skeletons pretty easy to raise compared to the previous versions of the army book, which offsets their fragility pretty well...


4) Are Grave Guard still worth it?
Again, under the previous rules, these guys were the tits! Tough as nails, very survivable, and able to hit like a tonne of bricks. I'm not so sure now though. To me, they look expensive, with not significantly much more survivability compared to the much cheaper Skeletons... Granted Killing Blow and Great Weapons still give them a lot of punch, but I'm not convinced it's ever going to be enough punch to justify their high points costs compared to the rest of the infantry in the list.


5) Is there a downside to Hexwraiths?
Or should they just be a 1+ choice of 8-10 in every standard sized list? Sure they're hard to raise compared to Black Knights, but their special rules all seem to make them absolutely awesome for hunting War Machines that might snipe your General, or carving up other heavy infantry / cavalry that your basic core units are going to struggle with otherwise.

[Vibgyorloe]

I have played a game against Hexwraiths and found them underwhelming. Sure "You can't hit me except with magic" is great but they died to combat res stupidly easily.

My opponent did only run 5 though...

Also the Graveguard are no longer a point and click everything in front of them dies unit. This is a good thing, other options are probably just as viable now.

[Paulus]

At the higher point games, you can have both a vamp lord and a master necro. I'd still stick with the vamp lord due to he's more survivable imo.

Night shroud says models in base contact from memory, not, models attacking.

Imo a extra 5-10 skele attacks really won't matter to much, I'd go with hw/s as they're more a tarpit.

I think grave guard are still worth it. You can't compare them to skeles, I'd rather 1 gg vs 2 skeles any day. And now that they cost 1pt less, I can't see why they're not worth it. Giving you access to s6 attacks is something you need.

For me, hexwraiths are now a auto include. They just have so much potential to disrupt and do dmg that I doubt I'll ever leave home without at least 1 unit of them.

[possum]

I think grave guard are still worth it. You can't compare them to skeles, I'd rather 1 gg vs 2 skeles any day. And now that they cost 1pt less, I can't see why they're not worth it. Giving you access to s6 attacks is something you need.

For me, hexwraiths are now a auto include. They just have so much potential to disrupt and do dmg that I doubt I'll ever leave home without at least 1 unit of them.

Regarding Grave Guard, the reason I'm doubting their value now compared to previously is because they're so much more expensive compared to the other ranked infantry you can choose. Previously the points difference between GG and Skeletons wasn't as pronounced, and there weren't really viable options for cheap chaff infantry so it made more sense to go with the 'elite' Grave Guard. Now though, there's the option of cheap Skeletons and Zombies for ranks and numbers, and also harder hitting units like Blood Knights, Vargheists, and Crypt Horrors. I'm struggling to see where GG can fit in...


Hexwraiths, I completely agree. I doubt you'd ever want to let the unit get into a straight up fight. Just March them straight towards war machines, kill them, and then turn around and start running back and forwards through enemy heavy units for the Spectral Hunters wounds.

[Archon Eugenic]

A unit of hammerers (or chosen, or .... ) wll decimate your skellies, crumble your blood knights and withstand most magic. But Grave guard are perfect for taking on that 3+ armour and can actually kill them quite well. Plus with ranks that the knights lack the GG won't all fall to a single crumble test.

Eugene

[Draeth]

I have only had a quick read of the new VC book so sorry if this question is stupid.
Do the Hexwraiths get their great weapon strength bonus on their move through attack thingy?

[blackwolf]

I have only had a quick read of the new VC book so sorry if this question is stupid.
Do the Hexwraiths get their great weapon strength bonus on their move through attack thingy?

Yep, all their attacks (including the 'move through' attacks) are at strength 5, and are both magical and flaming.

[arthurdent]

Yea the move through attack is resolved at str 5 regardless.

[Kahz]

A unit of hammerers (or chosen, or .... ) wll decimate your skellies, crumble your blood knights and withstand most magic. But Grave guard are perfect for taking on that 3+ armour and can actually kill them quite well. Plus with ranks that the knights lack the GG won't all fall to a single crumble test.

Eugene

Agreed on this part, my hammerer/bsb block munches through the majority of a vamp list. Only thing that really has held them up are GG or something with solid vamp support. The KB is scary to consider throwing anything that runs a character (aside from unkillable bsb) against it, and even then the combat res usually balances out really closely so crumble never gives off too big of a hit on them compared to skels/zoms/bknights which are lucky to last 2 turns of combat.

[Akenatum]

are people factoring in with skellies the whole, reroll hit and wounds capacity now with the spells? sure there are units that are bad matchups against them but that's the same for most every core in the game.

[Blade_of_Apollo]

are people factoring in with skellies the whole, reroll hit and wounds capacity now with the spells? sure there are units that are bad matchups against them but that's the same for most every core in the game.

The issue is that they still lose a tonne of models every combat - even if they do a couple of extra casualties. Maybe against Bret peasants they do ok?

[Kahz]

are people factoring in with skellies the whole, reroll hit and wounds capacity now with the spells? sure there are units that are bad matchups against them but that's the same for most every core in the game.

How about giving the whole reroll hit/wound thing onto graveguard instead..?

[Blade_of_Apollo]

How about giving the whole reroll hit/wound thing onto graveguard instead..?

Definitely!

Only problem is, they aren't core!

[Draeth]

Am I the only one not seeing Hammerers going through 50 Zombies in a quick fashion?

[SturmJager]

Yep, all their attacks (including the 'move through' attacks) are at strength 5, and are both magical and flaming.

Yea the move through attack is resolved at str 5 regardless.

Also armour save too!

[Astafas]

A couple of points:

Graveguard are good. They were always and will always be good. s6 and the rest of their statline, plus the capacity to bring them back fast, makes them very good indeed. Having said that they arent core and except for the killing power there is ~600pts of core that can do the same sort of thing... personally I would see Black Knights as better (not sure how quick they come back though )

If a vampire player isnt going to be using zombies, skellies or ghouls as part of their strategy to win - and instead relying on GG - they are playing with one hand behind their back...


Downsides for HexWraiths: No 1 they are going to be target no 1 for any spells. First turn your opponent is going to smash them with every spell and ranged magical attack they can.

So thats a fairly expensive unit that you then have to spend a lot of your focus on protecting. Not something you can really do well if you use their fast cav capability... you might get to alpha strike one unit, but then its boom at close range with magic missiles...

Yeah they will absorb stuff coming at your other units and can be good if used right but they are too expensive to be "expendible" - 10 costs more than a massive unit of knights!!!

They are also too fragile to be relied upon to charge any unit with a character with magic weapon, and if they do get charged are going to go down fast (ok if no magic weapon not so quick BUT having used ethereals you would be surprised how often the amulet of light pops up in a HE army, or an ogre blade in a bretonnian one...)

My gut is that Black Knights are better and more useful all around. BUT hexwraiths have their place - 5 x s5 on a hydra cant hurt, or charge big gribblies with them and do some damage... hexwraiths wont end up being an auto include if you ask me.

We all have different play styles though


*** oh and agreed I dont see hammerers going through zombies that fast... do the maths then take into account 2d6+4 new zombies every turn... hammerers shouldnt be fighting zombies they should be fighting black knights or grave guard...

This post has been edited by Astafas: Jan 29 2012, 02:55 PM

[Vreith]

Grave Guard will still be the Go-to guys in VC IMO, St6 T4 says it all realy. now they are however less protected and aren't forceing opponents to hit them on 4+ majority of the time so combats will be closer fought and drawn (much to people who do not play VC's delight)

However Hexwraiths, yea fast Cav get Vanguard, but with out the ability to march, like Vargheists they would sit behind my army as they can move over Unit's, what's good is they will ad 5 attacks worth of CR and deny attacks, however a Varghiest will deal more damage, but based on your enemy they may leak CR back as they have no defense, using them as scouters/hunters is redundant as they are frenzied LD7. a basicly mentality of your day to day Khorne Warrior.

work on those VC aura of dark majesties, fear incarnate, scream banner, helm of discord, night shroud, staff of Damnation and a terror causer bloodline. Between 3 vampires, which ontop of the fancy rules pops out 12 ST5 attacks for your assaulting unit and 3x lore of death lvl2. Unfortunately i do not find the new book much a stretch from the old, just can't protect your unit's & more incentive to put a standard vampire in the frontline

[blamb]

With the ethereal rule in regards to not being affected by movement rules. Does this take precedent over the vampire march rule?

[Preacher]

With the ethereal rule in regards to not being affected by movement rules. Does this take precedent over the vampire march rule?

No. Everything needs to be within 12" of the General to march.

[Astafas]

Something else to keep in mind vis Hexwraiths that a mate who is actually playing the new VC, unlike me who has retired as antibandwagon , has pointed out is the whole 8"move.

You cant end your turn in a unit, and you dont automatically pop out the other side. So you actually need enough movement to get to the unit, pass through the unit, and end up with 1" clear unless I am mistaken...

So for a normal ranked unit that means you have to start 1" away...

To cross a unit of 5x5 20mm bases you need to actually be able to move about 3" to the other side of that unit (maybe slightly less if you form up in a line lengthways)... which itself has a span of about 4"...

Not actually that easy. I guess you could move up to 1" away from the front and then block them / move through next turn... or use vanhels to do it. (NB This is based on approx 2.5cnm/inch and a 5man unit of hexwraiths...)

Simpler against things like chariots or thin units but still not easy.

So Hexwraiths are better on paper than they will be in practice... If they can march they will be good though...

Which means Vreith that your idea of holding them back if probably a good one

Screamers of Tzeentch do it better...

This post has been edited by Astafas: Jan 31 2012, 08:52 AM