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> Scarab Farm Has anyone played with or against it?
Crynn
post Apr 30 2012, 12:34 PM
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Hey guys.

So there was plenty of word around the internet when the Necron codex first came out around 'Scarab Farm Lists' however i have never seen one or herd of any flaoting around the Australian Tournament scene.

So my question is, has anyone played one? has anyone played against one? If so, was it a tough game, how do you think the lsit perform and is it really a list that can play ball with the big boys.

Would love to see some comments about this type of list, even some of the specifics of units that were taken in the list other than the spiders and the scarabs.

Thanks for the help guys!

Regards,
Crynn

This post has been edited by Crynn: Apr 30 2012, 01:38 PM


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Krefey
post Apr 30 2012, 03:16 PM
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I suspect there aren't a lot around after they FAQ'd where you could place generated scarabs to limit them to being close to the spyder rather than daisy chaining them towards the enemy.


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Crynn
post Apr 30 2012, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE(Krefey @ Apr 30 2012, 03:16 PM) *

I suspect there aren't a lot around after they FAQ'd where you could place generated scarabs to limit them to being close to the spyder rather than daisy chaining them towards the enemy.


You can still dazy chain them a litle bit towards the enemy and can get first turn charges but it isn't rediculous to the point of those extra 18 inches people were getting. Still I think theyare a good unit and still a decent army lsit but I have never seen anyone play them.

Regards,
Crynn

This post has been edited by Crynn: Apr 30 2012, 03:29 PM


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Krefey
post Apr 30 2012, 03:52 PM
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Only a little. You get an extra 3-4" or so at best.


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post Apr 30 2012, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE(Krefey @ Apr 30 2012, 03:52 PM) *

Only a little. You get an extra 3-4" or so at best.


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post Apr 30 2012, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE(Krefey @ Apr 30 2012, 03:52 PM) *

Only a little. You get an extra 3-4" or so at best.


3 1/2 inches.

But yeah its enough to make a first turn charge.


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Crynn
post Apr 30 2012, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE(Krefey @ Apr 30 2012, 03:52 PM) *

Only a little. You get an extra 3-4" or so at best.


True Kref. I'm still surprised no one uses them as generally you don't want to assault first turn with them anyway

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Dark Apostle
post Apr 30 2012, 05:06 PM
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Might see a few popping up with the release of the new models.


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Onehandedorgy
post Apr 30 2012, 08:08 PM
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The biggest problem with the list is its a one trick pony and people know the trick. Its also hit and miss against some armies. Useless against grey knights and near point less against a Doa blood angel list. Biggest thing about it is scarabs are good you just shouldn't base a list on them. People know how dangerous scarabs are so plan for them.(well smart people anyway)

2 units of scarabs and 1 unit of spyders(scarabs only have to be 6 strong and spyders 2, provided they are allocated) is plenty in a 1750 point list. Anymore and you waste points which could be better spent elsewhere. biggrin.gif

Hope that helps.


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Crynn
post Apr 30 2012, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE(Onehandedorgy @ Apr 30 2012, 08:08 PM) *

The biggest problem with the list is its a one trick pony and people know the trick. Its also hit and miss against some armies. Useless against grey knights and near point less against a Doa blood angel list. Biggest thing about it is scarabs are good you just shouldn't base a list on them. People know how dangerous scarabs are so plan for them.(well smart people anyway)

2 units of scarabs and 1 unit of spyders(scarabs only have to be 6 strong and spyders 2, provided they are allocated) is plenty in a 1750 point list. Anymore and you waste points which could be better spent elsewhere. biggrin.gif

Hope that helps.


I guess I just disagree. The scarab farm list I played has only 550 points dedicated to spiders and scarabs, that's less the 1/3 so I don't see why you can't make it into something other than a one trick pony. the spiders are great in combat for their points, tough and provide psychic defence against many annoying powers.

I find with the other 1200 odd points I can make lists that are still capable in other areas, its not like paladins who require about 650 for a squad + a GM so you are looking at around 850 Base. GK with a couple of characters attached to a reasonable combat unit can be a problem for sure but DoA blood angles doesn't stress a scarab base list as far as I can tell, care to explain why? I don't want to come across argumentitive I am realy just looking for reasons why you may think this type of list struggles. I have no intention of playing Necrons but I like to be prepared and understand how other lists I may face work and I real feel some well made scarab armies can give enemies hell.

Regards,
Crynn


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Devourer
post Apr 30 2012, 08:54 PM
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General issue with scarab in necrons.

Necron = shooty army
Scarabs = tie stuff up in combat
Combat = you cant shoot into

that is why people usually go full scarabs or just minimal investment into them.
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Blackhearts Reaver
post Apr 30 2012, 11:08 PM
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They meet units like meganobs and cry, littlle rusty tears... (even just a couple of PK or PF and they loose combat rather quickly).

And lets face it, meeting enemy h2h unit in the mid ground and giving them a possible h2h to avoid your shooting for a turn after they orchestrate "kill scarabs in scarabs turn" (easy to do if you know what you are doing> even with PK unit [Mega] or PF/TH unit [termies] ).

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: Apr 30 2012, 11:12 PM


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Crynn
post May 1 2012, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE(Devourer @ Apr 30 2012, 08:54 PM) *

General issue with scarab in necrons.

Necron = shooty army
Scarabs = tie stuff up in combat
Combat = you cant shoot into

that is why people usually go full scarabs or just minimal investment into them.



True there probably would be minimal shooting in such a list however just don't charge the things you want to shoot. While crons may be a shooting army I would argue they have more really strong combat choices in wraiths spiders and scarabs than they do in shooting where the only very powerful unit for the cost in terms of fire power is the annihalation barge.

QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ Apr 30 2012, 11:08 PM) *

They meet units like meganobs and cry, littlle rusty tears... (even just a couple of PK or PF and they loose combat rather quickly).

And lets face it, meeting enemy h2h unit in the mid ground and giving them a possible h2h to avoid your shooting for a turn after they orchestrate "kill scarabs in scarabs turn" (easy to do if you know what you are doing> even with PK unit [Mega] or PF/TH unit [termies] ).


Mega nobz would get absolutely torn up by scarabs. If the scarabs had decent number. You have to remember how much the scarabs tend to out number their enemy, granted mega nobz instant death them hurts but that is thy you have other close combat units like spiders that would destroy mega nobz for the points. The scarabs are a very small investment in the list, the spiders are amazing in cc for just 50 points each. Have you ever played against such a list, I would to know if anyone has actually played against such a list.

Regards,
Crynn

This post has been edited by Crynn: May 1 2012, 11:25 AM


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KIng Yoshi
post May 1 2012, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE(Crynn @ May 1 2012, 08:53 AM) *

True there probably would be minimal shooting in such a list however just don't charge the things you want to shoot. While crons may be a shooting army I would argue they have more really strong combat choices in wraiths spiders and scarabs than they do in shooting where the only very powerful unit for the cost in terms of fire power is the annihalation barge.
Mega nobz would get absolutely torn up by scarabs. If the scarabs had decent number. You have to remember how much the scarabs tend to out number their enemy, granted mega nobz instant deathwing them hurts but that is thy you have other close combat units like spiders that would destroy mega nobz for the points. The scarabs are a very small investment in the list, the spiders are amazing in cc for just 50 points each. Have you ever played against such a list, I would to know if anyone has actually played against such a list.

Regards,
Crynn


this whole post made me lol.

Pawnbarges being the only valuebshooting for there points? Yeah ok tesla immortals, lance crypteks even tesla tomb blades when used correctly. Warriors point for point will outshoot/outsurvive a full tac squad. And it all gets worse combines with stalker(s).

meganobs getting torn up? I dont think so. Even at full strength, after saves 10 scarabs only cause 1.3 wounds and if nobs are allocated out only the one meganob loses its save. 3 mega nobs with 9 attacks kill 5 bases and then the scarabs suffer 13-14 fearless saves. Worse if there are more than 3 or an IC in the meganobs.

Dont use spiders as a defence for your scarabs. They are too slow to be a counter attack for your scarabs.

This post has been edited by KIng Yoshi: May 1 2012, 09:31 AM


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Crynn
post May 1 2012, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE(KIng Yoshi @ May 1 2012, 09:21 AM) *

this whole post made me lol.

Pawnbarges being the only valuebshooting for there points? Yeah ok tesla immortals, lance crypteks even tesla tomb blades when used correctly. Warriors point for point will outshoot/outsurvive a full tac squad. And it all gets worse combines with stalker(s).

meganobs getting torn up? I dont think so. Even at full strength, after saves 10 scarabs only cause 1.3 wounds and if nobs are allocated out only the one meganob loses its save. 3 mega nobs with 9 attacks kill 5 bases and then the scarabs suffer 13-14 fearless saves. Worse if there are more than 3 or an IC in the meganobs.

Dont use spiders as a defence for your scarabs. They are too slow to be a counter attack for your scarabs.


Damn my phones predictive text. Turns out mega nobz can instant DEATHWING!

You can 'Lol' all you like but firstly you have mis quoted my words. didn't say valuable shooting units i said 'very powerful' I don't think lance cryptecs, stalkers, warriors are 'very powerful' shooting units, the cryptecs aren't bad for their cost but slugga boyz put out more shooting point for point than warriors. Saying warriors outshoot tactical marines is a joke, not because they can't do it but because tacticals marines have one of the worst damage outputs of any squad for their points. The annihalation barge has significant firepower for it's points, the units you named do not (the bikes are not abd but serve the same role in terms of their fire pwoer as too many other necron units mainly their troops to be really useful). They may be good units but they aren't game breakingly powerful. Wraiths, scarabs and spiders on the other hand are exceptionally powerful for their points, yes mega nobz with all power claws can deal with them quite will but in a scarab swarm army you wont take 10 hits you will take 20 or 30 as your slow mega nobz march up the field (if you're in a battlewagon that is more investment again and scarabs will lvoe eating that). The same points of scrabs to 3 mega nobz is 10 you then add 18 new bases to that in just 2 turns and those mega nobz are toast! 2 will die to the charge or with wound allocation one will die and 2 will have no save, so fealess saves will kill another 2 bases only 22 more to go!

Now I am well aware there is a whole ork army not just a few mega nobz but these scarbas are cheap and expendable and in huge numbers. I have seen lists that still have good shooting with scarabs at least to the point of being able to thin out horde numbers and as soon as the scarabs attack something like boyz who can't instant death them they go even better, rememeber with their huge charge range they can pick what they want to charge. 28 scarabs on the charge will kill 20 ork boyz and are fearless so will hold up many more until the spiders and wraiths are in combat, at that point the orks will struggle to kill them.

The spiders dont protect the scarabs directly but they do follow them and offer excellent counter cahrge along with more scarabs and wraiths. Alsothe scarabs dont charge into the middle straight away allowing enemy CC units the combat the love, they sitback and horde untill they can overwhelm the opponent.

The fact is that the highest placeing Necron armies at overseas events have been based around scarabs, so irrelivant to whether you think Necrons possess 'valuable shooting' it isn't being proven by players so far. So my question is, why don't we see it here? Instant deathing scarabs hurts for sure but people are still making it work for them overseas even if these lists aren't carrying them to the final tables, they are fairing better than other Necron lists.

Regards,
Crynn


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Blackhearts Reaver
post May 1 2012, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE
Mega nobz would get absolutely torn up by scarabs. If the scarabs had decent number. You have to remember how much the scarabs tend to out number their enemy, granted mega nobz instant death them hurts but that is thy you have other close combat units like spiders that would destroy mega nobz for the points.

Fo' realz..... Meganobs get 3 attack base smile.gif my standard unit puts out 37 attacks charge (no charge28) of which I would put in as many as I can on the swarms.= so maybe 20-22 (15-17) instant deaths? Of course a few will have maybe died to scarab attacks. Lets assume you have got 2x10 swarms into full assault (no spiders until turn 2) 20x5=100x1/2 x 1/3 x 1/6=3wds allocated out to the combis. I attack back and kill all 20-22 (14-16)...anything vaguely touching that combat is on "snake eyes" to stay or taking 40+saves???

Wanna throw another 300 pts in...? I'd be tying that combat to as many necron units as I could on the Warrgh!! turn(with boyz units) and not care about the losses...

Spiders vs PK / PF 2wd units? if they wer str8 I would aggree but they are not and alot of the danger units have invuln to water down damage or mutiple wds or both.... and most will kill spiders back even more quickly (3+ to hit 2+ wd mostly and some instantdeath capable).

And that is assuming you have killed the Armour 14 vehicle (with FF) with Str7 Str8 and maybe a Str10 Blast....(who use Hv destroyers these days..mmmm...).... Ask 'Orgy how Necron scarabs go vs Mega. Reality is not far from the math...

Oh and P.S. alot of the "termie class units" fielded these days have FNP as well... sad.gif

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: May 1 2012, 01:21 PM


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ĆON
post May 1 2012, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE(Crynn @ May 1 2012, 11:46 AM) *

The fact is that the highest placeing Necron armies at overseas events have been based around scarabs, so irrelivant to whether you think Necrons possess 'valuable shooting' it isn't being proven by players so far. So my question is, why don't we see it here? Instant deathing scarabs hurts for sure but people are still making it work for them overseas even if these lists aren't carrying them to the final tables, they are fairing better than other Necron lists.


3 Things
1 - Its a gimmick that only works against certain armies
2 - Its boring to play as there is not much tactical play required (kind of like Paladins only they are more hit and miss)
3 - The Codex has only been out a few months and not all the options were availiable till recently (even now we are still missing the flyers) so not alot of builds have been explored.

Why dont you play a few games and see if you are tactically challanged.

I have enough scarabs for 60 bases but have not put any time into doing them because Id rather build a varied army rather than go for the one trick pony.

Still; Id like to see if they are not as boring as they seem on paper; might give me incentive to move them up the painting schedule.


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Crynn
post May 1 2012, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ May 1 2012, 01:05 PM) *

Fo' realz..... Meganobs get 3 attack base smile.gif my standard unit puts out 37 attacks charge (no charge28) of which I would put in as many as I can on the swarms.= so maybe 20-22 (15-17) instant deaths? Of course a few will have maybe died to scarab attacks. Lets assume you have got 2x10 swarms into full assault (no spiders until turn 2) 20x5=100x1/2 x 1/3 x 1/6=3wds allocated out to the combis. I attack back and kill all 20-22 (14-16)...anything vaguely touching that combat is on "snake eyes" to stay or taking 40+saves???

Wanna throw another 300 pts in...? I'd be tying that combat to as many necron units as I could on the Warrgh!! turn(with boyz units) and not care about the losses...

Spiders vs PK / PF 2wd units? if they wer str8 I would aggree but they are not and alot of the danger units have invuln to water down damage or mutiple wds or both.... and most will kill spiders back even more quickly (3+ to hit 2+ wd mostly and some instantdeath capable).

And that is assuming you have killed the Armour 14 vehicle (with FF) with Str7 Str8 and maybe a Str10 Blast....(who use Hv destroyers these days..mmmm...).... Ask 'Orgy how Necron scarabs go vs Mega. Reality is not far from the math...

Oh and P.S. alot of the "termie class units" fielded these days have FNP as well... sad.gif



Really your 400pts of meganobz killed 20 scarabs? holy crap, case closed then. Who the hell in their right mind would charge 9 wound allocated Mega Nobz with 20 scarabs? they are more likely to attack that custom forcefield Wagon you were talking about which would go down Jenna Jamieson on a $2000 movie deal.

The thing is you don't dictate the charge they do. Spiders point for point will beat mega nobz and unlike them wont get instant deathed by str 8 weapons. they also provide psychic defence and make more scarabs. if those 9 spiders hit your 9 mega nobz (not saying they would) your meganobz would lose.
There are going to be units that beat this and that and whatever but surely you can see that for the cost these necron combat units are quite good. FnP hurts the scarabs a bit for sure bit it will still remove termie saves also their main role will be tank hunting much of the time. As for math not equalling reality that is just not true. whether you like it or not the game is fundementally based on math, it is one of the reasons I do very well with 40k simply because I have a good ability to do math on the fly. Now a general has more control than simple math any many parts of the game however taking equally capable generals and pitting them up against each other actually leaves you with math (inclusive of trig) terrain is simply another variable that factors into equation to make int 1 for instance, but this is an argument for another time.

QUOTE(ĆON @ May 1 2012, 01:07 PM) *

3 Things
1 - Its a gimmick that only works against certain armies
2 - Its boring to play as there is not much tactical play required (kind of like Paladins only they are more hit and miss)
3 - The Codex has only been out a few months and not all the options were availiable till recently (even now we are still missing the flyers) so not alot of builds have been explored.

Why dont you play a few games and see if you are tactically challanged.

I have enough scarabs for 60 bases but have not put any time into doing them because Id rather build a varied army rather than go for the one trick pony.

Still; Id like to see if they are not as boring as they seem on paper; might give me incentive to move them up the painting schedule.


1. I disagree it's a gimmick, it's a solid screening unit that is also good at taking out any type of mech which most armies have. great at contesting objectives as well. It's hardly a gimmick as it only cost around 500 pts so less than 1/3 of the army, you can still ahve a very good list to abck it up. and 9 spiders providing psychic defence is never a waste, there are a grea unit in their own right.

2. I didn't find them boring as agian they were less than a third of the army when I tried it. Also Paladins when theya ren't a draigo kara deathstar are tricky to play, target priority and deployment are far more important as is the ability to multi cahrge and guarantee cover. What is easy is MSU where target priority is simple and you get to capitilize on every good roll not, what do i fire 10 whole paladins at, ddo I combat squad? I love elite armies so I have found paladins lots of fun. Tactically they can be used by an idiot who jsut throws them away but a great general will time his attack and use multi charges and screening to make them actually a very tactical unit. They set up everything in the movement phase which is by far the hardest pahse of the game and keeping all spiders within 6 while screening an army actually gets quite technical, mroe so than 6 rhino chassis where the two in front pop smoke.

3. Very true, but i'm surprised someone hasnt forked out the cash and conversions. no thunder cav for a long time didnt stop people.

I tried it but not nearly enough for anything conclusive but founf it very successfull, as useuall the lsit I wrote was a bit weird in the rest of it's make up but it ahd many tricks and played like nothing else I had played before, I found it very enjoyable.

I understand they aren't for everyone but they do well overseas which says at least a little. You don't ahve to have your whole army built on them and they are very cheap. I don't know what 'better' necron lists people thinka re floating around but I can say that I find the AV13 spam very lack luster and easy to deal with and most of the time their lack of any combat protection crippling when I play against them. Most of their units are too expesive for what they do but these combat elements are not, finding asynergy with 1200pts worth of other units can't be that hard. Maybe I am being overly defensive but I honestly think people are missing their potential.

Regards,
Crynn


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Blackhearts Reaver
post May 1 2012, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE
The thing is you don't dictate the charge they do.

If you haven't killed the Bwagon T1(1-2 if ORK going second) (under a FF) the charge for meganob T2 is 13+1.9"(+40mm)+1d6wargh+Highest 2d6 charge. Usually around 22-24" charge(16.5 + 2-12). equivalent or better than a cav charge.

The Scarab screen idea will work against a reasonable number of current lists. There is a reasonable % of lists that will make a meal of it. crunching in 9 spiders to shore up your "winning" argument means I get another 8-10 meganobs and ghazghull (/paladins/DWtermies/TH+SS +lysander etc...)......

This post has been edited by Blackhearts Reaver: May 1 2012, 02:26 PM


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Crynn
post May 1 2012, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE(Blackhearts Reaver @ May 1 2012, 02:24 PM) *

If you haven't killed the Bwagon T1(1-2 if ORK going second) (under a FF) the charge for meganob T2 is 13+1.9"(+40mm)+1d6wargh+Highest 2d6 charge. Usually around 22-24" charge(16.5 + 2-12). equivalent or better than a cav charge.

The Scarab screen idea will work against a reasonable number of current lists. There is a reasonable % of lists that will make a meal of it. crunching in 9 spiders to shore up your "winning" argument means I get another 8-10 meganobs and ghazghull dude......


No it really doesn't mean you get anything else. your meganob unit costs almsot 500 points the spiders and all the scarabs are only 550, you don't get anything else, that is what you fail to understand. by the end of turn 2 even starting with 2 units of three scarabs there are now 24 scarabs turn 3 a total of 33 scarabs have been on the table. Yes you can make your battlewaggon charge that distance but it's only the battlewaggon unit that are charging. they can be stopped by just glancing hits reasonably easy. but by the by the scarabs still have a larger charge range which goes up to 27.5". This isn't a ork vs Necron thing simply put it's look what you get for 550 pts, psychic defence 9 monsterous creatures and in 3 turns over 30 scarabs, you got 9 meganobz, I'll tell you what you are getting much less bang for your buck.

If the scarab screen works against a reasonable numebr of lsits then that is great for the cost I would happily take that because psychic defense and 27 toughness 6 3+ save wounds is worth is without scarabs. You have to understand you aren't paying for scarabs. The unit they come on is already good for it's cost.

Regards,
Crynn


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Placings:
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2nd - Cancon 2012 (Highest Battle Points) - Battle Bunker Crash 2011 - VICC 2011 - Battle Bunker Arc qualifier 2011 (Best General)
3rd - Conquest - Australian Team Challenge (Highest Battle Points) - Battle Bunker Crash 2012
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