2350 Empire, comments and such great!, Last one, I swear! Options

[dongledongle]

Okey then, given the reaction my last theoretical list had I've decided to go back to my original and tweak it a little. I know it has decent magic and shooting (as decent as empire can be anyway) but I think if anyone across the table is level headed enough theyll see the balance, as I've sacrificed some leadership and combat ability for a little more magic (not too much I hope!). Comments and comp scores appreciated!

Wizard Lord
lvl 4
2 Scrolls
Luckstone

Wizard
Lvl 2
Rod of Power

Captain
BsB
Imperial Standard
Warhorse
Barding
Full Plate

CORE:

25 Swordsmen
8 Swordsmen detachment
F/C

10 Crossbows
10 Crossbows
10 Handgunners
10 Archers

5 Huntsmen

6 IC Knights
F/C
Warbanner

SPECIAL:

2 Great Cannons
5 Pistoliers
5 Pistoliers

RARE

stank
3 Ironguts
Bellower

[Guest]

IMO opinion the first list you made up was the best and would recive the best comp scores.

this list just has more magic than the other thefore 2/5 from mw for sure.

trust me stick with the first list you made.

[Matthew Debala]

sorry i wrote that, forgot to sign in

[kroxigor]

This list is better than the other one, but the list i played on the weekend was better still.

All you need to do with that list is be more aggressive with your griffon banner swordsmen. They can take a front on charge from anything bar chosen knights and win, and even then they still are a chance of winning.

Cheers.

[sabi]

IMO opinion the first list you made up was the best and would recive the best comp scores.

this list just has more magic than the other thefore 2/5 from mw for sure.

I think that this proves that no matter what list you take some people will mark you down for comp and other wont ( you cant please everyone)

To be honest a level 4 and a level 2 isnt not *cheesy* or overpowered magic its just competitive (8 power dice with no bound items nor any special abilities i.e +1 to cast etc)

Personally i think this list is a tad out of theme (something which i never really care about), but some people out there will most likely mark you down for comp

Suggstions: a.) drop the rod of command ( i dont think you can save dispel to power only power to dispel), for a doomfire ring and maybe third scroll or power stone ?
b.) Add a 4th irongut
c.) Drop 10 arches and 10 corrsbows and take IC mark of the knights in order to buff them up to a unit of 11 (12 with the captain) that way you have a fast hard hitting unit that can also can get into combat with descent combat ress.

As it cureently stands i would mark this list 4/5 simply because i fail to see how you plan to win games with it... a steam tank, 3 ogres , and 6 IC knights wont cut it and 8 power dice really isnt enough

(If you get anything less than 4/5 from someone i grant you permision to slap them acrros the face .. this list obviously carrys a lot fat, sacrificing LD and combat effectivnes, not to mention stability for gods sake there is only one ranked up unit and at the best of times it will be LD 8 if not 7)

With the changes above i believe your list becomes more competetive and a tad harder so 3/5

[Golden_monkey]

I think this list is VAST improvement over that pts denial ######e in the other thread. I would give it a 3/5 as average for the tournry. (Even with a stank which is still fine IMO)

[stryder]

Yep, good hard list. 3/5. Competes in every phase strongly. No fat but everything works together to do its part, just the way empire should work.

btw, just to add in a totally off topic 2c, after a game I had today, I hate cannons........ a lot.

[Colzey]

3/5 from me 2. I agree 8lvls of magic no bound/bonuses is competetive not OTT. The list does look a little odd though, maybe just different i spose.

[dongledongle]

@ sabi: The only difference between this list and the one I've been using recently (which seems to work quite well) in terms of combat effectiveness is 5 less swordsmen and no griffon standard. The combat units I use typically never match up against any opponents hammer units, and if they do its only with combo charges or after considerable shooting. They are there to take on anything that I decide not to refuse flank against, which most often they do very well at given that I have enough deployments to choose who they face off against. Also dont underestimate the stank on the charge, I've seen that baby break blocks of saurus. Regarding theme I've modelled everything as a mercenary army (whose theme I love) so everything is a little easier to justify if thats what an opponent is looking for... As a sidenote ld8 with rerolls from the imperial standard is much better than flat ld 9.

@ Kroxigor: Thanks for the comment, and I'll definately take on board what youre suggesting. The big problem I have with what youre saying though is that in a game I take a gamble and throw the swordsmen out there with no supporting infantry and quite likely have them die (600vps for the unit and general) or have them sit back, do nothing and ensure the enemy doesnt get the 600vps... The reason I'm looking at using this list is a) the extra magic should do wonders and supports the shooting and It doesnt matter as much if the swordsmen lose combat given they are alot cheaper, not to mention that they are still a solid unit that can take charges and win successive rounds (kill 7 to take a rank off and start with CR 6). Seriously in every game I've played with the original list the elector count has never had to get into combat, this way I'm just making sure my general, even if not in combat, can do something decent.

Overall on paper the list might look as though it cant deal as well in combat, but ultimately given how I've played in the past with decent success theres no detriment and in fact it should (barring horrible casting rolls) work worlds better.

[kroxigor]

Just out of interest, what lores will you be using with each mage?

I would highly suggest taking shadows for your lvl 2, soley so that you can take steed of shadows and get your lvl 4 out of there when things get hairy.

Cheers.

[dongledongle]

It would depend on the army I was facing really.

Always heaven on the level 4 (unless against brettonians where I might take death) and either fire (more missiles against horde lists) or heavens on the level 2.

[Elmin]

I like it more than the last list, agreeing with much said above. I strongly advise you drop a xbow unit and pump the ogres up to 4. As I've said before, ogre base size units do FAR better at units of four for two main reasons:
1. If you loose one to shooting, the unit does not become useless
2. If you do make it into combat with 4 intact, you can hold up against the front of a fully ranked up unit (12 attacks - 6 hits - 5 wounds - -3 to armour saves with str6 ogres )... and taking 5 models off a ranked up unit should mean that subsequent combats go more in your favour.

Bring it in on saturday and gimme a test run? Gotta see if i can drill that aggressive play into you Jesse reckons he'll be in aswell

[dongledongle]

4 Might be an idea. But what youre forgetting with the whole 4 ogre / aggressive play idea is that the whole idea of refused flank armies (as I see it with empire anyway) is to maximise shooting and isolate combats that I'm assured of winning (not to mention I'm reluctant to spend another 48 points on a t4 5+ armour model).

On one flank go the swordsmen, knights and stank and across the middle and on the other flank go the token / shooting units. Swordsmen / knights / stank are (or should be) guarunteed of romping anything they match up against on the other side of their table, while the larger and more expensive enemy units have to walk from across the table to get to any significant point block. With marchblocking it should work against any enemy, given that skirmishers are max movement 10-12 as a worst case scenario.

In a way I do play aggresively by sending the knights / ogres / stank forward on one flank supported by one another, but only insofar as I'm assured of winning against whatever they are pitted against (barring a bolt in the flank, seriously though, it was a cold one with a zombie and elf crew or some s**t, how was I to know? )

I will think about the ogres though, but I doubt I'll get rid of the crossbows for them. Maybe a unit of pistoliers for the ogre and another token F/C unit (As you see alot of my plan hinges on refusing flank, so I'm reluctant to give up deployments)

Cheers

D

[dongledongle]

sorry, I'll be in sat for sure...

[sabi]

(barring a bolt in the flank, seriously though, it was a cold one with a zombie and elf crew or some s**t, how was I to know? )

What kind of irresponsible, self midned arrogant sob would even dare to use proxy models totaly ruins the game keeping it out of theme making the gaming experience less pleasurable for both parties

Doongle i give u the right to grab that particualr person (whos identity shall remain unknown) by the afro and beat his head into his models then maybe they might resemble themselves into somewhat of an army

Anywho on a totaly unrelated matter Chris have you bought yourself a 3rd bolt thrower yet?

[Gobsmak]

A 2?! Have these boards gone mad since I have not been posting as often? I think I'd probably give this either 3s or 4s out of 5. The magic phase is medium and sacrifices Ld 9. The magic phase is also a big risk in terms of getting your points back from it. Although this has decent shooting, the shooting will not win games outright and bret lists will chew through this setup unless you get very favourable terrain. I look forward to hearing back on how you go with this. My suspicion is that it will greatly depend upon not drawing fast moving hard hitting armies like brets, mounted chaos or DL.
-Ed

[dongledongle]

To be honest I'm not all that worried about brets with this list, provided I'm not looking at multiple peg knight units... Regarding flyers I'm actually intending on swapping the ROP for the orb of thunder on the level 2 (Tzeentch DL no longer a worry unless to wretchedly magic heavy that I cant manage to get it off every other turn...)

The reason I'm not worried about armies such as brets is 1) typically they have fewer deployments than an average army, and as such I own the deployment phase (this means when refusing flank they would literally have to cross the entire table to reach my points while dealing with marchblockers / token units which have punch and cant be ignored) 2) I tend to have an overlapping battle line with everything more than 6 inches away from one another as standard and position units so as to be immune to overrun / pursuit moves into combat, meaning a) one unit of missile troops or whatever die there are still two and a cannon or two left (barring multiple charges but I tend to try and avoid those too) to shoot at them and they need to make a crap load of individual charges to get everything. 3) The shooting might not look like much, but when youre getting 10-20 AP shots a turn plus crossbows plus cannons it tends to knock off a few ranks.

Finally is the stank. If I have to sacrifice 200 points of units to ensure a favourable charge from the stank I will, and believe me against brets for example (unit size 9?) a just over 12' charge with rerolls from second sign will either destroy (not or at the least break) in that turn or subsequent turns (average 10 hits but lets say 12 with rerolls, 10 wounds, about 5 or 6 dead, terror, outnumber... you get the picture)

[linningcafro]

barring a bolt in the flank, seriously though, it was a cold one with a zombie and elf crew or some s**t, how was I to know? )

wooooooah up there sunshine .. is this coming from the dude who once used a chaos army almost entirely composed of movement trays??

oh and no i havent picked up a 3rd bolt thrower yet - or a 4th .. i prefer mine to be camoflaged

but on the list .. i dont think that ull get your points back from the magic phase .. i really like where ur going conceptually with ur empire lists but i prefer your other lists .. however, on the plus side u wont get a comp hit with this list .. unless someones been smoking some exotic grasses .. id give it a 4/5 .. its prob one of the softest tourney lists ive played against..

[dongledongle]

Once I did... once... but at least my wolves were wolves and not, what was it again? dark riders?

Anywho, I knew that I more than likely wouldnt get that many points back from the magic phase (although I've found that while two spells and another couple of power dice dont seem like much, it makes an exponential difference). The point of using the mages was that with how I played my swordsmen and elector count never got into combat (i.e. refused flank). I think I might have said this earlier but anyway, what I use refuse flank as is another way to deny points by putting all of my expensive crap on one flank against enemy units they cant possibly lose against. I get those points, and by the time the rest of the army gets to my expensive stuff its either too late in the game to make much of a difference or they are too diminished by shooting to make a difference.

Now I could either go with the elector and swordsmen and only have them perform effectively by putting them on a flank where they can be of some use, that is facing off against an expensive enemy unit (assuming that I own deployment). Now in doing this I run the risk that theyll get destroyed and I lose 600 points, not to mention the fact that it kind of defeats the purpose of a refused flank as I see it.

In using the mages it gives me more shooty stuff which is what the army is mainly about in addition to giving me more points in characters to deny the enemy of. So essentially whats happening is the wizards are doing the same thing the elector count was doing but better because not only are they just sitting on their arses and not getting killed, but theyre also casting magic at the same time.

[linningcafro]

i think an elector count, and 3 lvl 2s would be a better combo ..