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> Golden Demon - Old Format vs New, From the round 1 results thread...
insaniak
post Oct 12 2006, 05:45 PM
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For the sake of not derailing the results thread any further than it already is, I thought I'd kick this over into a seperate thread.

For those who came late... Some people think the new format is the best thing since sliced bread, some are not so impressed. I tend to fall into the latter camp, as I find the loss of Games Day and the associated bits and pieces that went along with it to be worth far more than the convenience of being able to just drop an entry into the local GW store.


From the other thread:
QUOTE(Gonzoangel @ Oct 12 2006, 04:50 PM) *

I think one of the problems with the old Games Day format was that there wasn't much to keep people entertained. If you were there for the Demons then you really had no interest in the multitude of gaming tables, or the speed painting when they had it. There was no use doing the shop because the prices were the same as retail, so basically you were constantly perusing the Demon entries until late in the day when the announcements were made, as long as you made it that far of course.
If you were there for the gaming then fine, but you probably had little interest in the painting stuff.
There were seminars, and Forgeworld in the last couple of years, but the length of the queue's was prohibitive to most.

I've noticed that other countries Games Days have modelling tables where you can be creative with a table full of sprues or painting tables where you can sit and paint at leisure or a variety of other activities, maybe we needed other stuff like this to keep the masses coming back?
I don't know, I'm guessing here, or maybe I'm way off course and it was basically cost prohibitive to GW to put the day on no matter what activities they supplied?


There's a few good points in there. But once again we come down to scrapping the event rather than fixing it.

Retail doesn't do well at regular prices? I can think of a real good solution to that...

Not interested in gaming? Bung in more painting events. The speed painting comps always seemed to be popular. There was also an idea floated around a while back for a GD category for miniatures painted on the day.

Running a tournie on the side seems to work well for other countries, and would give people a chance to play against different opponents for a change. Heck, even just putting in some gaming tables over to one side for people to bring and battle with whoever they stumble across on the day...


It just seems that there is a vast well of ideas that could have been utilised to make the day bigger and better, but for some reason scrapping it was the better option...



QUOTE(automaton @ Oct 12 2006, 04:50 PM) *

Insaniak, I don't want this to be an argument or a personal attack on you or anything, becuase believe me, I agree with a lot of the things you are saying.

But it's a bit sad to hear you say that the new format is ridiculously bland and uninspiring. I don't know if the numbers of entries are up, down or the same compared to any previous years, but I do not that there are still many people who have put a lot of time and effort into their painting for GD - including myself - and to hear you dismiss it as 'just not worth the time' is actually a bit hurtful.


If you're taking that as a personal snub, then you've taken my remarks entirely the wrong way.

Leigh already mentioned that the number of entries was down this year. It was up last year, but an awful lot of those (going by the forum discussions afterwards) were from people just grabbing stuff out of their cabinets when they saw how low the entries were in some categories... And even this year, with entries down, there also seems to be a large swing towards Youngbloods entries, which I suspect is from staff getting kids to paint instore and just enter whatever they have painted. I'm sure there are still a lot of superb entries in there, but the majority of people simply won't get to see them.

That's the real problem with the new format. Not that the quality of the entries goes down, but simply that the majority of people no longer get to see the majority of entries. All you see is what comes in at your local store, and whatever makes it into White Dwarf.




QUOTE
Yes, there are many problems with the new format, but we need to try to work with what we have, and make the best of it. It's up to the painters to try to make GD a good event here, and I think something that is needed is more of a positive attitude to all of this! We need to get some enthusiasm going, and people need to put some effort into creating an event! We can't have an event without lots of great entries, and more importantly great people.


While I can see where you're coming from here, I don't entirely agree.

Companies the size of GW don't run events for gamers to have a good time. They run them as a marketing tool. It's not up to us to make Golden Demon a better event, any more than its up to us to stand on street corners selling White Dwarf to unsuspecting pedestrians.

It's up to GW to put on an event that we are interested in participating in... because that's how they make their money.



QUOTE
Don't say that it's not worth trying - the more people that think that, the worse it will be.


Which is a good thing. The worse it gets, the shorter will be its lifespan, and then it can be replaced by something better.


That turned into a bit of an epic, and it seems the original thread is still rolling over with more posts telling me to start a new thread... so I'll leave it there for the moment and welcome any comments...

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Zordana
post Oct 12 2006, 05:53 PM
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If you are talking about the Golden Demon, then I would have to say I will always prefer this format over the old one because if they reverted to the old style id hardly ever be able to enter. It'd be the same people winning every year and I think it would get incredibly stale.

EDIT:

QUOTE(insaniak @ Oct 12 2006, 02:23 PM) *

If they had fixed the event they already had rather than scrapping it and starting over with no Games Day and a watered-down Golden Demon, how much closer would it have been to 'right'?


I'm not sure what's so bad about a 'watered down' golden demon. I prefer the way it is to it being concentrated in the one state.

The old style was held in one place, the same people entered and won every year.

The new style opens it up for the entire country, surely that's the total opposite to being 'watered down'. If it works and we all buckle down and get more people to enter, we will see a whole lot of new winners from all over australia. Heck just look at last year, the first year they open it up and someone 'new' wins the sword.

More entrants = more money = more likely gw will spend more on fixing the issues we have with the competition.


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dagger
post Oct 12 2006, 06:30 PM
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From my POV I prefer the old format.

I've been trying to put the right words together as to why, and all I can say was that for me, Games day was a big thing. It was an effort to get there, so I wanted to do my best work. It was an opportunity to catch up with mates from all over Australia, meet new poeple, and see _all_ the entries on the day. I found it inspiring, and came away really amped.

This year, it was find of a case of me and a few mates enter in the store, and in 4 weeks I'll find out if I win anything.

Sure, I could go to the final, and see all the finalists, but it's not quite the draw games day was (although if the efforts this year all come off well it sounds like there will be a lot more for the serious painter to do).

My 2c.

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automaton
post Oct 12 2006, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE(insaniak @ Oct 12 2006, 05:45 PM) *


If you're taking that as a personal snub, then you've taken my remarks entirely the wrong way.



I know you didn't mean it as anything personal, and really, it doesn't bother me too much tongue.gif

I was more thinking of young painters who don't have much (or any) GD experience - like me last year - who have put in heaps of effort, and then see people saying that the GD here is a waste of time. It can't be good for motivation - whether it's true or not.

QUOTE(insaniak @ Oct 12 2006, 05:45 PM) *


While I can see where you're coming from here, I don't entirely agree.

Companies the size of GW don't run events for gamers to have a good time. They run them as a marketing tool. It's not up to us to make Golden Demon a better event, any more than its up to us to stand on street corners selling White Dwarf to unsuspecting pedestrians.

It's up to GW to put on an event that we are interested in participating in... because that's how they make their money.



Yes, that's true - you are right. But this is why I was suggesting that we might take a little more responsibility on ourselves for making GD good - that way the element of doubt over whether or not GW will improve the event is removed. We can make it fun for ourselves, and then it doesn't matter what GW do! But if they do make some improvement, then all the better! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(insaniak @ Oct 12 2006, 05:45 PM) *


Which is a good thing. The worse it gets, the shorter will be its lifespan, and then it can be replaced by something better.



WEll that's what I'm afraid of - that GD will disappear, and that nothing will replace it. Because at the moment, if GD was canned, I don't think there would be anything there to fill the gap. Yes, there are lots of painting comps...but would any of them really be able to approach the size and prestige of GD? If they can, then great - let's have those comps as well, the more painting comps the better! But whatever it's faults, GD is still the biggest painting comp here in Aus/NZ - by far. And I don't want to lose it!

I'm sure it is easier for me, never having gone to a gamesday - last year was my first year of GD, as I;m sure most of you know. So that means that I don't have the same problem with comparing the current version to the old days....

All I can say is that last year at the GD finals day, I had the greatest time - sure, a lot of that was due to my unexpected success (I still haven't recovered from the shock! haha), but I would like to think that I would have had fun anyway - actually, I know I would have. And I intend to have a great day this year as well! So yes, there are problems with the format, but I still believe there are good things about it, and about GD in general.


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insaniak
post Oct 12 2006, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE(Zordana @ Oct 12 2006, 05:53 PM) *
The old style was held in one place, the same people entered and won every year.



Here's the first 6 categories from 2004 (last year in Sydney) and last year (first year of the new format):

Warhammer Single
2004...........................2005
Glenn Lamprecht..........Leigh Carpenter
Robert Sakaluk............Glenn Lamprecht
Leigh Carpenter...........Marcus Blackman

Warhammer Large
Glenn Lamprecht..........Weisern Loh
Chris Marckonis...........Marcus Blackman
Rachel Borthwick.........Victoria Lamb

Warhammer Regiment
Rachel Borthwick.........Rachel Borthwick
Glenn Lamprecht.........Gavin Clarke
David Redmond...........Justin Feaver-gross

Warhammer 40K Single
Trevor Tolhurst............Sebastian Archer
Richard Dagger............Luke McFarlane
Leigh Carpenter...........Robert Sakaluk

Warhammer 40K Large
Leigh Carpenter...........Leigh Carpenter
Robert Sakaluk............Marcus Blackman
Peter Overton..............Andrew Lum

Warhammer 40K Squad
John Travers................Jonathan Van Butzelaar
Victoria Lamb...............Andrew Lum
Anthony Baldwin...........Jamie Downward


I'm not sure I'm seeing a huge difference for the new format... There's a few one-off names in both lists, but the 'big name' painters are still cropping up in the new format. If anything, it's easier for them since they're no longer restricted to 3 categories, and don't have to travel to Sydney to enter.

No matter how you set up the field, there's always going to be people who dominate. But they don't last forever. They have their time, and eventually either they leave, or someone comes along who is better.

And in the meantime, they give you something to aim for.



QUOTE
The new style opens it up for the entire country, surely that's the total opposite to being 'watered down'.


It's 'watered down' because it's just not as impressive.

Sure, on an individual basis, there are still fantastic entries, and people get a chance to enter who didn't before.

But walking into your local GW and seeing a table with half a dozen miniatures on it just doesn't have the same impact as walking into that hall full of rabid gamers, and seeing those rows after rows of Golden Demon entries...

This post has been edited by insaniak: Oct 12 2006, 07:15 PM
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scottlar
post Oct 12 2006, 07:18 PM
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How about more coverage in WHite Dwarf either by a special edition or a section (bigger than the one they do now) in a couple of editions where most, if not all, regional entries appear. Then follow this up with the finalists and winning entries. This way you get to see more of the entries, what other people are up to, and the changes in standard. In concert with this, they could run the regional events in the old format, as a Games Day and Golden Demon event to cover all aspects of the hobby. This way both the marketing and hobby aspects are satisfied by increased exposure, sales and motivation.
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Enterfaith
post Oct 12 2006, 07:20 PM
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Only one trouble with that idea Scott. Some people are against people taking photos of their minis before the competition is over. So that wouldn't really work.


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scottlar
post Oct 12 2006, 07:25 PM
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Yeah true, but how many actually do not want there photos in the white dwarf, i know there wil be a few, but the amount that will, will out number those who dont, i think, i may be wrong. sorry if i am.
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weisern
post Oct 12 2006, 07:38 PM
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so anyway, it was explained to me last year by Andrew Long that one of the main factors for not having Games Day was personnel logistics. In Australia, they had to pull all the staff from all stores and leave each store manned for 2 days on a skeleton crew (in most cases only 1 worker). Its a lot different than in England, where they have so many stores that they could pull just 1 person from each store to staff Games Day.

Also, all the head studio personnel (Jes Goodwin, etc) would easily turn up to Games Day as it was just a short walk away. Whereas to get any of those designers, etc, to come to Aus, the individual would have to be already visiting here for other reasons. This sounds a bit cheap on their behalf, but oh well - it never interested me.

The other smaller factor was, some painters only went to GD for the painting comp and got no value from the other things on offer, or had no intention in participating. The new Conflict events are easier for them to run is supposed to cater to the gamers.

If you are dismissing the new format because there are less entries to look at on the finals day, then have you really thought it through? If every regional had 3 amazing entries per category, then each category on finals day would have 18-21 (?) top minis to look at. Lets face it, perusing at GD, I would only look at decent entries, and counting those (as I've been to 3 old format GDs) there were less than 18 top minis per category.

If one is a serious painting competitor, why is the prospect of seeing 18 top minis per category on finals day, and meeting other painters, a dampener on one's spirit? It was more watered down for me at the old GDs as there were so many people, I didn't know which were the painters and it was harder for me to meet them. With last year's format, I could easily approach anyone and chat to them about painting, as most of them were there for the painting comp.

The real GD for me is not round 1, or round 2, but the finals. Come on, isn't it obvious to all? How could a serious painter think the finals day for GD is not impressive?

Another important aspect mentioned is motivation and inspiration. Not everyone derives their motivation and inspiration to better their painting skills solely from 1 painting event from 1 company once a year. Use the fierce competitive nature within yourself and seek out other sources of inspiration and motivation, for there are plenty out there on the vast net of painters' websites and online community forums.

What do I draw my inspiration from? I see GDs, and other painting comps from around the world, and aspire to learn some of the more interesting styles, so that I may lift our standards here. armata_PDT_14.gif Ok so maybe I didn't achieve it this year with my entry but this is the base principle of my inspiration. My motivation comes from my competitive edge. armata_PDT_11.gif Ok, once again, I will most likely fail to beat 3rd place with my guesses of the other great contenders (eyes off Trent, Jonathan and Max dry.gif ).

From what else do you all draw motivation and inspiration for a painting competition? If you lack motivation and inspiration for GD because there aren't, rabid gamers running around, loud noises, goods one can already buy instore and online, previews etc, then there's not much you can do but create a fresh outlook on what else can motivate and inspire you to paint competitively.

This post has been edited by weisern: Oct 12 2006, 08:00 PM


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Zordana
post Oct 12 2006, 08:46 PM
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This thread is kinda confusing, its kinda like people are talking about games day and gold demons as though they are the same thing. People seem to be bagging the demons format purely because games day was canned. It confuses my pregnant brain.

QUOTE
From my POV I prefer the old format.

I've been trying to put the right words together as to why, and all I can say was that for me, Games day was a big thing.


So... its not that you dislike the golden demons as they are, but you dislike the fact that games day was canned.

QUOTE(insaniak)

I'm not sure I'm seeing a huge difference for the new format... There's a few one-off names in both lists, but the 'big name' painters are still cropping up in the new format.


We've only had one standalone Golden Demon comp so far... lets give it a chance before we start rolling out statistics biggrin.gif If you go back over the old format winners, sure there are a few odd names here and there, but mainly you see the same people winning constantly.
I dont think you can say the same for this format untill its been running for at least a few years.

QUOTE
But walking into your local GW and seeing a table with half a dozen miniatures on it just doesn't have the same impact as walking into that hall full of rabid gamers, and seeing those rows after rows of Golden Demon entries...


As for that, hopefully soon they relocate the finals to a larger venue so that people can turn up to game if they so desire. Sure there still wont be as many golden demon entries to look at, but they may up the limit if enough people are entering.






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CuChullain
post Oct 12 2006, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE(insaniak @ Oct 12 2006, 07:13 PM) *


But walking into your local GW and seeing a table with half a dozen miniatures on it just doesn't have the same impact as walking into that hall full of rabid gamers, and seeing those rows after rows of Golden Demon entries...


That's true - the Games Day format had absolutely no impact on me at all as I wasn't prepared to travel to Sydney to see it.

The local comp, however, enabled me to see some damn fine entries from guys like weisern and gonzoangel.

I'm sure that the Games Day/Golden Daemon format was fantastic for those painters dedicated enough to their craft to make the trip and for those that went for the gaming-type activities. But I'm pretty sure I'm not Robinson Crusoe in saying that gaming and painting doesn't hold as high a position in my life as it would need to, for me to shell out money for airfares and accommodation to travel up just to see nicely-painted fig's - cos I sure as hell wouldn't be going up there to pick up any prizes wink.gif

For those of us who paint up our stuff, knowing full-well we're never going to be in the same class as Vic Lamb or Leigh Carpenter and the like, the local heats give us a chance to see where we are in relation to other painters - how well we've improved, what techniques we can pick up and the like.


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scottlar
post Oct 12 2006, 09:18 PM
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i agree, give it some time to establish itself
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Slardy
post Oct 12 2006, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE(scottlar @ Oct 12 2006, 07:18 PM) *

How about more coverage in WHite Dwarf either by a special edition or a section (bigger than the one they do now) in a couple of editions where most, if not all, regional entries appear. Then follow this up with the finalists and winning entries. This way you get to see more of the entries, what other people are up to, and the changes in standard. In concert with this, they could run the regional events in the old format, as a Games Day and Golden Demon event to cover all aspects of the hobby. This way both the marketing and hobby aspects are satisfied by increased exposure, sales and motivation.
Scott. Atkinson



Trust me there will be "alot" of coverage directly and indirectly from this year's demons from WD... Cookie is a great bloke and is well aware and informed about the general painting and gaming communities wishes.... WD OZ and GD OZ are entities that are changing and developing for the better.... look at Seb's recent article on painting and Glenn's 6 artilcle special on painting and designing of his Woodelf article... which mind you was done so well by Bryan and Lorenzo that WD USA picked it up ... something that has never happened before.....

So take heart all... there will be lots of wonderful things coming out of this years GD in OZ.... yup I miss Games Day for the GD's being all on the one day.....but guys its gone (insert Fatty Vautin voice here)..... lets work towards the future...

On another note... and I'm not jumping the gun but we will have our own little painting compettion at GD this year featuring the sculpt of one of our own Aussie artists!!!... MORE on this in another thread.

Gav smile.gif


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Paintingploddy
post Oct 12 2006, 10:02 PM
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I know I would never have entered in the old format. I am not interested in paying to go shopping in Sydney and fight a horde of people to get in. I have no interest in tournaments. What point is there in getting to see all these amazing entires if you are fighting to keep your place.

You may find the new format bad, but I would say as many people like the new format and enjoy the opportunity to enter. I might change my view if the venue changed state regularly but I don't see that happening. At the end of the day if we don't support the contest we will lose it. GW are not in this for our benefit and the cancellation of the GD in Australia won't really register with painters world wide.

I will concede we are unlikely to get any international entries under this system though.
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numbat
post Oct 13 2006, 12:02 AM
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"Golden Demon is a location, not a national painting competition" to quote Steve Buddle. I think that is what this thread is effectively debating.

One thing I find unfortunate with the new format is that we miss out on more international painters coming over to enter our Golden Demons, though perhaps next year I can offer Jeremie Bonamant lodgings at my place so he can enter the first round, haha smile.gif

Actually for me, it gives me a lot of incentive to save my money, and (hypothetically) rather than travelling to Sydney for Golden Demon, I can go on an overseas holiday while one of their Games Days is on.

Get the best of both worlds, enter Demons here cheaply, and go on a Golden Demon holiday overseas.


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Zippy Wonderdog
post Oct 13 2006, 12:24 AM
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Does Australia have a big convention like Gencon? Maybe thats what we need.
GW could run its Golden Demon there and the competition with other gaming companies might inject a bit of competive life into the company.


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insaniak
post Oct 13 2006, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE(scottlar @ Oct 12 2006, 07:18 PM) *

How about more coverage in WHite Dwarf either by a special edition or a section (bigger than the one they do now) in a couple of editions where most, if not all, regional entries appear. Then follow this up with the finalists and winning entries.

That would be a good start... assuming they ever figure out how to take decent photos for White Dwarf. The photos from the last couple of years have been horrendous.



QUOTE(weisern @ Oct 12 2006, 07:38 PM) *

so anyway, it was explained to me last year by Andrew Long that one of the main factors for not having Games Day was personnel logistics. In Australia, they had to pull all the staff from all stores and leave each store manned for 2 days on a skeleton crew (in most cases only 1 worker).


I'm not actually seeing the problem there... unsure.gif However, even assuming that it is a problem, there are alternatives. Just as an example, concentrating on the larger participation games rather than having so many little tables scattered around. Three 4-player games on 3 seperate tables need 3 staffmembers. 1 12-player game on 1 table only needs one...

Or recruit volunteers from gaming clubs. Whether to run games or just for mule-work, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who would be happy to help out for the cost of admission.



QUOTE
If you are dismissing the new format because there are less entries to look at on the finals day, then have you really thought it through?


I wasn't actually talking about finals day specifically, since that's still in Sydney anyway... which leads to a whole different problem.

What I was talking about with checking out entries was that the only entries that most people are going to see now are those entered at their local store. Finals would still be worth checking out, but we have the same problem there that you say was a problem with the old format: People are stuck travelling to Sydney just for the painting comp. Without a Games Day backing it up, there is really not a lot of incentive for anyone other than the finalists (or even for the finalists themselves, for that matter) to travel to Sydney for the finals.



QUOTE
The real GD for me is not round 1, or round 2, but the finals.


Good for you. For those of us who enter for the fun of it with no real expectation of ever making it to the finals, the 'real' GD is one in which your mini sits on a table surrounded by dozens of other cool entries.


QUOTE(Zordana @ Oct 12 2006, 08:46 PM) *

This thread is kinda confusing, its kinda like people are talking about games day and gold demons as though they are the same thing. People seem to be bagging the demons format purely because games day was canned. It confuses my pregnant brain.
So... its not that you dislike the golden demons as they are, but you dislike the fact that games day was canned.


I think to many people Games Day and the Golden Demons were intrinsically linked. So yes, a large part of the dislike for the new format is the loss of Games Day, because Games Day was a large part of what made the Golden Demons more than just another painting comp.



QUOTE(Zippy Wonderdog @ Oct 13 2006, 12:24 AM) *

Does Australia have a big convention like Gencon?


Not yet. There is one scheduled for Brisbane in 2008...
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Slardy
post Oct 13 2006, 07:22 AM
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[quote name='insaniak' date='Oct 13 2006, 06:45 AM' post='328456']
That would be a good start... assuming they ever figure out how to take decent photos for White Dwarf. The photos from the last couple of years have been horrendous.

Now you're starting to look a bit silly here.... last years pictures were quite well done.... at least comparable to any other WD photos of minis in the world....

This post has been edited by Slardy: Oct 13 2006, 08:01 AM


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scottlar
post Oct 13 2006, 09:42 AM
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I agree, the photos were much better last year than they have been for a long time. I mean look at what happened in 2004, all the entries were really dark and about 3 also (not sure exactly how many) didnt even 'turn out'.
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insaniak
post Oct 13 2006, 09:54 AM
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Sure, last year's were better than they have been. No argument there.

But that doesn't make them good. The Sword-winner was severely under-exposed, all grey and washed out. There were a few good ones mixed through, but by and large the rest of the entries were either similarly washed-out and dark, or were over-contrasted, which made the highlights look severe and rough.

Don't get me wrong, it's great to see pictures in White Dwarf, particularly if we don't get to see the actual entries. But the quality so far, while improving, is still less than jaw-dropping.
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