The New D&D, Haven't seen a thread yet. Options

[Dru]

at GenCon they announced one of the books Im an author in (5 of us wrote it):

http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Delve-4th-Su...1290&sr=8-1

Yay

Dru

[Deathwing_Master]

at GenCon they announced one of the books Im an author in (5 of us wrote it):

http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Delve-4th-Su...1290&sr=8-1

Yay

Dru

No picture! Can you give us an idea on what it's about? A DM manual for making darstardly dungeons?

[Dru]

No picture! Can you give us an idea on what it's about? A DM manual for making darstardly dungeons?

Its a dungeon crawl for every level (so 30 of them). They have scoring criteria (healing surges used, etc) so the players and play them over again and try and beat their score.

Use it as a stop filler on a night when all the players dont turn up of if you havent got a mod prepped or are short on time and just want to throw them into combat when they explore that sewer/cave/temple etc.

Feb 2009

Dru

PS: I wrote 7 of the levels (of the 30).

This post has been edited by Dru: Sep 1 2008, 01:13 PM

[damnitsham]

No gnomes?!

I'd be that one person who loves the gnome characters, hella cut that they have been demoted

Got another V3.5 coming up after I finish off this DH campaign, this time as a warforged. And they aren't PC in 4th ed either!

I'm gonna become a DnD relic already, and I only got into it last ed?!

[Dru]

No gnomes?!

I'd be that one person who loves the gnome characters, hella cut that they have been demoted

Got another V3.5 coming up after I finish off this DH campaign, this time as a warforged. And they aren't PC in 4th ed either!

I'm gonna become a DnD relic already, and I only got into it last ed?!

Dragon mag online released Warforged PC stuff for free - they are fairly rocking.
I hear Gnomes are coming out in a future book.

Dru

[Deathwing_Master]

Its a dungeon crawl for every level (so 30 of them). They have scoring criteria (healing surges used, etc) so the players and play them over again and try and beat their score.

Use it as a stop filler on a night when all the players dont turn up of if you havent got a mod prepped or are short on time and just want to throw them into combat when they explore that sewer/cave/temple etc.

Feb 2009

Dru

PS: I wrote 7 of the levels (of the 30).

Groovey. That explains the wootness. Look forward to it. This kind of approach in published material is the way i want to approach the game. (unimaginative hack-fest, with pretty miniatures and glossy aids) Well, sue me.

[Deathwing_Master]

Dragon mag online released Warforged PC stuff for free - they are fairly rocking.
I hear Gnomes are coming out in a future book.

Dru

Gnomes and other races seem fairly viable to play from a section i've seen in the monster manual. So you can get to it if you want. Gnomes seem particulary fun to use as rouges.

[Dru]

Gnomes and other races seem fairly viable to play from a section i've seen in the monster manual. So you can get to it if you want. Gnomes seem particulary fun to use as rouges.

4E has been very good for PCs being able to play monster races. No more humanid racial HD and crap. /yay

I just finished another freelance assignment today. woot.

The splat books will give a lot more racial options. Btw, check out the Star Pact warlock options released for free in Dragon mag online. Some of the dragon stuff has been really rocking.

Dru

[damnitsham]

Reheheaaally?

If that's the case then maybe I shall ask my friendly neighborhood DM if he can help me make the *grudging* transition

Has anyone got the link for said warforged article? I'd like to see how the awesome transfers over to 4th...

[prays for juggernaut class]

[morsla]

The warforged article appeared in Dragon #364 - you can get it here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drtoc/364

There's a link on that page to the original article, as well as the full magazine. I don't think much changed after the individual article went online, but the compilation is always the more recent version.

[Flesh Render]

Hmmm...Fourth Edition. For me, it s a giant let down. 4E has totally butchered the Roleplaying section of D&D, in my opinion. Now it is more focused on the combat side of things, rather then the actual character interaction. On top of that, the flexibility provided by each class has been cut apart, re-evaluated...And the final product is just frustrating.
No longer can I have an Elven Warrior/Monk/Ranger running around with it's incredibly close-combat skill while my spell caster friends dish out the pain.


Overall, I am just not so sure about 4E. Judging from the comments so far on this thread, it is great for combat and is very streamlined - I got that impression when I read the rulebooks. But in all honesty, I think I will only ever switch to 4E when all the materials are released...

[Dru]

4E plays better than it reads.

Also, I always get a chuckle out of posts saying 4E removed RP. RP is done by the DM and the Players, the game system doesnt remove that. There are less splat books out so less choices, so if you equate tooling your character up as RPing, then sure, at the start of a new ruleset, you wont have as many options.

Personally I hated the min-max of multiclassing in 3.0/3.5. It was horrid, with a lot of 2 levels of monk type stuff. We've all seen it, even done it, doesn't make it good. Just made those that went straight class very underpowered. Which sucks, IMO.

Anyway, really, at the end of the day, if you and yours prefer the old rules, as long as you play something you enjoy, who cares. Just don't rubbish 4E (esp the nonsense about removing RP) until you've played it with a good, experienced 4E DM - you might be suprised!

Cheers
Dru

[DancingPigeon]

I agree with Dru. The rules don't have anything to do with the RPing aspects- it's up to your group of players and the DM involved as to how much the Combat to RP ratio slides- no matter the ruleset.

[tenabrae]

Also, I always get a chuckle out of posts saying 4E removed RP. RP is done by the DM and the Players, the game system doesnt remove that. There are less splat books out so less choices, so if you equate tooling your character up as RPing, then sure, at the start of a new ruleset, you wont have as many options.

I agree with Dru. The rules don't have anything to do with the RPing aspects- it's up to your group of players and the DM involved as to how much the Combat to RP ratio slides- no matter the ruleset.

Assuming everyone at the table is a 'roleplayer'TM, sure... but 4e doesn't even try to encourage roleplaying, through it's rules, or through the tone in which it's written. It's a PnP MMO ruleset and they really didn't try to pretend otherwise.

If a new player, someone who'd never played a roleplaying game before picked up 4e, do you think they'd turn out to be a roleplayer or a rollplayer ?

At least 3e was written in a tone that encouraged some roleplaying (though I would still say it wasn't particularly great at it).

One of my favourite quotes from 4e...

"...playing an evil or chaotic evil character disrupts and adventuring party and, frankly, makes all the other players angry at you."

Thank you Mr. DnD writer for making moral judgements about my playgroup in the voice of a 4 year old.

This post has been edited by tenabrae: Oct 19 2008, 06:50 AM

[Dru]

something done very well in this edition is writing for NEW players/DMs. The DMG is IMO the best of any version. As a long time RPer/DM I wont use a lot of it, sure, but for new groups the 4E stuff is written great. That does mean that for vets there will be much superfilous information, something you've taken as condescending, when infact its there as a tip for new DMs/Players. Having made the noob mistake of allowing mixed alignments and seeing the group explode, I think its a good tip to have for those new to the game.

Also, I have found 4E to have more RP situations that 3.5 based on rules (thought I again reiterate that RP is not and shouldnt be rules driven but since you raised it as a measure, I'll deal in those terms).

Skill Challanges are the best example. Some groups will, sure, just say, make 4 successes before 2 failures. But those into RP turn a Skill Challange into half a night of Roleplaying fun. Ive incorporated those mechanics into the trap system and given players visual clues on how they are progressing without resorting to the "you have 2 successes, 1 failure, need 2 more successes". Some groups prefer that, sure, and want to move to the combat. Other groups much prefer the roleplaying and working through skill challanges in a RP manner, using skills as tools and mechanics to facilitate the RP rather than overriding it. It all depends on your group. 4E having no RP/less RP than 3.5 is a comment without basis. The only way I can perceive that mentality existing is confusion between RP and fluff/hooks - since the PHB has a lot of rules and less fluff that some are used to - again as more splat books come out that will change (see the FRCG as an excellent example).

Incidently on an unrelated note, I'm having some fun with Kenzer's Aces&Eights (western setting) RPG at the moment - its a bit rules heavy to get into but the shot clock is fun. Worth checking out.

Dru

[tenabrae]

something done very well in this edition is writing for NEW players/DMs. The DMG is IMO the best of any version. As a long time RPer/DM I wont use a lot of it, sure, but for new groups the 4E stuff is written great. That does mean that for vets there will be much superfilous information, something you've taken as condescending, when infact its there as a tip for new DMs/Players. Having made the noob mistake of allowing mixed alignments and seeing the group explode, I think its a good tip to have for those new to the game.

Really ? Even as a long time gamer I actually found a lot of the game, both the rules, and the 'guidelines' quite confusingly written. The players guide especially has very little structure and often references rules it hasn't explained yet without providing a sidebar or page reference.

IMO the best DM manual for explaining to someone who's never done it before is the 3.0 version.

[cyroMAX]

Looking at the recommended way of playing the game, I realise I already play a miniatures game, so I am loath to take 4th Edition on for this reason.

As it stands I have got the core books and one of the adventures, because I am trying to do something which I believe is suitable to the system. I am converting it across to achieve a similar effect to the 3rd edition Diablo adventure.

Making my way through the system as it stands, they have been the opposite of the transparency they created in 3rd and 3.5 edition. I still have to dig deeper and get a feel for how everything works, but I am about half way through making the Barbarian from Diablo a viable character, and also beginning the Necromancer, more of a challenge as a spell user.

Diablo doesn't have a lot of depth, but I am trying to keep the flavours going of both Diablo with its class specific abilities, but then I am mixing it up with existing 4edition stuff, to create something that does homage to both games.

I have had a bit of a look at the creatures and the one disappointing factor in the DMG for creature creation is the lack of minions in that section of the book. Still I will search until I hope to find something similar, but minions will only really be useful in the first and maybe the second Acts.

[saturncancer]

I bought 4th ed and ran 2 adventures over 5 sessions in 2009. I couldn't stand the way everyone can regenerate HP (Healing surges) without a magical trigger. I even emailed WOTC and it was confirmed. It becomes ridiculous when people are supposed to be 'bloodied' after losing 50% of their HP in combat - but after 15 minutes game time they are good as new (75% HP healed WITHOUT magical aide)

It made healing spells and potions redundant except in combat.
With healing surges, first level characters with access to 100+ HP? WTF???

I do like Minions and have adapted them to 3rd ed, and I now give 1st level wizards a small magic item (such as a wand,ring,orb) of spell storing. The rest of the game has gone on the shelf along with the other boutique RPG's I own and have tried.

My brother DM'ed and defends 4th ed because he had fun with it and his group (more for social reasons I suspect, he has a crush on one of the chicks playing).

I have gone back to 3rd ed (3.5). I cut my teeth on 1st ed, and ran it, since 1987, started DM'ing the 2nd ed release in 1990 and starting 3rd in 2000.

4th ed is D&D in name only. It feels like a completely different game to classic D&D. It's fantasy, but so is MERP or Runequest, (but much simpler). 4th ed is a different game with D&D imagery ghosted over the mechanics.

to use an analogy to demonstrate:

1st ed - Classic English Cricket
2nd Ed - Australian One day games. Still Cricket
3rd ed - Indoor Cricket. Feels like Cricket (barely)
4th ed - Softball, T-Ball or something that still has people hitting balls with bats and catching them, but thats about it.

If you like 4th ed - kudos to you. But to newbies - check out the earlier editions and try playing them.

BTW much of the discussion ive noticed is about the varied approaches of the trinity of RPG'ers - Hack'n'Slashers, Puzzle Solvers, and 'Role'players. Hack'n'slashers like combat (miniatures required), puzzle solvers like a bit of plot intrigue and roleplayers just want to play in character. All are needed in a healthy game.
A good essay in the 1st ed Dungeoneers' survival guide covers it nicely. Different strokes for different folks.

This post has been edited by saturncancer: Jan 20 2010, 06:04 PM

[Draeth]

Our group tried 4th edition and just couldn't stand it. When it first came out, no Gnomes, Half Orcs, Monks and the like is just an insult. Taking Gnomes away for Dragon whatevers?!?!? What were they thinking?

We are now about to finish the whole Cauldron campaign from Dragon/Dungeon magazines from a few years ago (3.5) and couldn't be happier. We are doing it with 2 players instead of 4. Many sessions without any combat but still completing the adventures.

Helps I am an unkillable Druid!

[cheaky]

I've been buying pathfinder since issue one, Loving it. Got almost everything since release.. but no group Paizo are one of the best RPG companies out there right now.

I like 3.5 and pathfinder made it way better. I can still use all my 3.5 stuff with a few minor conversions.

I also got the a song of ice and fire role play by green ronin and I'd love to run that eventually.. alas. got to find a group first..