Tournament Pricing, What do you expect to pay? Options

[Darth Eddie]

Which were what exactly, youre still saying a lot without actually saying anything at all...

PM sent

[ArchonCryx]

TL/DR version: I think gamers get a fantastic deal. $50 (or less) for 5 or 6 games is absolutely awesome value. I hope gamers are comfortable with paying $50 and open to a little more if the TO needs that to cover costs. I'd rather pay $60 to play in a 20 person event than have it cancelled because they were only charging $40 and 20 players wasn't enough to cover costs...

It is difficult to find another indoor hobby where you can participant in tournaments for less. For example, Bridge tournaments typically cost over $100 per player for a weekend, and the larger ones can be over $100 per day! Playing in the Summer Festival of Bridge in Canberra (clashes with Cancon ) cost me $1100 for the 9 to 11 days(depending if make the finals) we would play. For our team of 5 (Teams bridge uses teams of 4,5, or 6 players per team), this added up to $5,500! SUre, they provoide the playing cards pre-shuffled and dealt, and have professional Directors for rules or p[rotcal disputes

I expect to pay whatever the TO thinks is he needs to run the thing. The difference between $40-$70 to me is pretty minimal, and I'd rather the TO charges the right amount to cover costs and keep the weekend as free of stress for themselves as possible.

+1

(*Also +1 Roy*)

Particularly for interstate tourneys it makes no difference to my decision if it's $70 entry fee or $20.... It is not my major cost factor. SO long as the event is reasonable size/quality, and good prize support, I'm willing to spend more. Even $100 wouldn't necessarily be out of the question at all, for the right event.

Locally, I am happy to pay up to $70 and would advocate all gamers should be comfortable with *at least* $50 entry as any less can lead to a loss making exercise ( and usually it's the TO taking any financial risk)

I tried running Lords this year with a reduced entry fee (reduced to $40) in hopes of increasing the numbers. While we got a great turnout (87 players just for 40K) based on the past 2 years trend the price seems to have had negligible influence on numbers. IE without changing our price, we grew by just about as much from 2008 to 2009 as we did this year.

Sure, *maybe* a handful of people were influenced, but given the headaches of a lower entry fee (and losing our cool cheap venue) I won't be repeating that exercise.

It's amazing the hidden costs people don't realise. For example, it's unfair to expect people to drive across the metro area several times without at least some petrol money and toll money - For Lords we're talking more than $10 in tolls each way for travel between Nth Sydney an Quaker's Hill- 4 trips = $40, I did that trip 6 times myself. I feel strongly that such costs should be covered, or at least subsidised, by the event. Particularly if one or two people are carrying most of the load (I mean, sure, if it was me helping another event I wouldn't accept petrol money for doing 1 round trip, but if it was 3 then yeah).

SImilarly there's vehicle hiring that may be needed.

And since I tend to borrow terrain from various clubs, I want to thank them with a small reward such as some terrain pieces or maybe 50 or 100 dollars for the Club fund.

Of course, the venue costs is usually the single most significant cost for any event. As a TO in slardy's predicament, I am wary of a much costlier venue next year and obviously need to watch my bottom line. I want to keep entry to $50 as that seems popular and of course I understand certain playing groups such as Uni students who may find an extra $10 a bridge too far.

And whatever's left over is for the prize pool! I try to put at least a third of the entry pool back into prizes. Of course, as Roy says, working with retailers to get yourself some sponsorship really helps, especially in this area. I'm pretty sure we made a great impression on attendees at Lords with a free gift pack for every entrant - solely made possible due to sponsors. This is your best area to control costs (as well as being flexible enough to take up all the spare entry cash you have due to late entries)

It all adds up and it's quite the balancing act to keep things under control. I have successfully run about half a doizen stand alone events where the financial risk was pretty much on me without losing significantly on costs. I guess the best advice to budding TOs when setting prices is to make a realistic budget. Venue costs are probably immutable, so that will set up your minimum cost. I would advise taking the venue hire cost, double that, and see how many entrants you need to cover that amount. This is your *minimum* size to be successful.

So, for example, I used to be able to get the ANZAC for $900. So my *minimum* cost level is arbitrarily set at $1800 and thus at $50 entry fee, I need a minimum of 36 entrants to be comfortable I'm not facing a likely loss.

$50 isn't much. I fully expect to pay at least 60% more for my next venue. Fortuantly I think it's not unreasonable to have an expectation of 60 players arriving so I'll be okay. I would have been rather nervous if this was the first Lords though - gathering 60+ people for a brand new single-system event isn't an easy task!

*always* set up the budget to make a (small) profit. This gives you an extra buffer and can be like a contingency fund. Any leftover funds can just go towards the next event.

Sorry that was so long.... a subject close to my heart that I've spent significant time pondering over.

[ArchonCryx]

Second - if TO's double check where their spendings are and shop around then more can be given back to the gamers. Or more importantly the fees can be reduced (big fan of cheap events).

I like to support actual venues that give me a place to play. Call me selfish, but these stores are my first ports of call for sponsorship and I have an excellent relationship. I don't require the *maximum* discount, I'd rather the stpore makes a small profit on the deal, and a 30% discount is still bl00dy massive

If prizes as as general consensus are more of a bad thing then good thing - then yes lets ablolish them and run on bragging and a hand shake for winning (I guarrantee attendance would drop everywhere but).

That would ensure everyone who attends is there for fun and not stuff right?

I regularly run things for gamers for no cost at all. Our next free event is a 1250 playtesting tournament to help guys prep for MOAB.

Good on you. +1 for supporting the hobby in your town.

If a little coin is needed to cover overheads then lets charge the bare minimum - forget prizes and give and left over coin to charities. My last quote for a bigger venue to host our big bash in NOV was only about $300 for the whole weekend - Are things more expensive in the cities? If so u guys are getting ripped off.

[tongue in cheek:] Or maybe you are just a provincial hick with tunnel vision??? [/jk] *Of course* things are more expensive in a big city. Sydney is one of the *most expensive* property markets in the entire world (I kid you not and I am somewhat concerned by this fact personally) it is only natural that that puts upward pressure on any kind of venue hiring. For Ghod's sake, our current venue is being torn down so it can be sold off as apartments. Apparantly tradition doesn't count for so much anymore as the ANZAC club becomes absorbed by Kirribilli RSL. A sad day for ANZACs, imho.

Starting next year once a few planets aline, I may be able to help some events gain cheap or free venues if they are being run by a club that is classed as not for profit. PM me for details.

Obviously I am curious. I will say there are some minimum requirements we need met. If you would be kind enough to pm slardy about this it would be a kindness as he's inquired in about 70 venues across Sydney withoutr finding something suitable.

But yes - u are right in shopping around to see which events are worth the effort going too. But being new to the scene i can only make descisions on what past players have stated etc....... so far this year overall, i have felt cheated out of money - by which I mean the quality of tables, room to breath without rubbing arses with the bloke next to me, having a place to store models on at the table instead of my efforts being in stomping range on the floor in a tray (No pun intended mike).

Again, I am totally frustrated that *no-one* deemed it appropriate to actually mention to myself or Mark that "hey the tables are a bit too close together." I am sure we could have worked together to find a solution (ie everyone grab a table and take on or two steps back as appropriate. TOs aren't Uber Ghods of presciuence and always need your help to make things better.

I am sort of feeling like I should come along to one of your events but save the time-sensitive criticisms for after the event when you can't do anything about it...

I do have great feelings about Emp Legion and MOAB though. I am told that they should be good and know the blokes running them.

What I would like to get organised is a lessons learnt thread where TO's can bounce ideas off each other and help out with stratagies/methods or networking with each other to reduce oveheads and the cost ot the players that attend. If that makes me a ###### then im happy to assume the title - as long as the gamers benefit and their dollars go further.

That is a kernal of a good idea although I am a bit skeptical and am not quite ready to take your word on running tournaments as gospel.

BTW, I did a financial statement for Lords, [EDIT: er,I should say I did a financial statement for half the event, fixing but double checking and taking a couple of days on it to get it right, lol. Suffice to say the loss wasn't there (I had wondered what the heck...)) now available in the sub forums

This post has been edited by ArchonCryx: Aug 3 2010, 07:28 PM

[The Warmaster]

TO's are Demi-gods that walk amongst us.

I would pretty much pay anything to feed my tourney addiction. The choice is yours as a consumer. They offer the highlight of your existence (well my existence anyway, my life is pretty dull) in a weekend package for $50/$60 bucks. You can buy the product or not by the product. I don't get this "OT's must demonstrate where the money goes" nanny state idea. You a Uni student or something? They can spend it on booze and hookers for all I care.

RoI really? Out of the 25+ tournaments I've been to I've come away with prizes three times. One of which was a raffle (4 if you include the look on Rylands face after our game at KC) . You don't go for the prizes man.

Ben & Alex don't listen too him. We love you we really do.

[MarkC]

I normally don't like handling money and look for a store or club to underwrite an event because I can't afford to carry a loss myself these days.

For the Gosford Shield 2010 I got the Central Coast Corsairs to underwrite the event.

As discussed with the club treasurer back in Nov 2009

The Corsairs are financially underwriting the event. While I believe that the Gosford Shield has sufficient history and community support to not be a financial risk I think that it is worthwhile to establish a precedent. You will need some big events like Gosford Shield to effectively establish a reserve to support smaller events.

The effective financial return to the Corsairs for underwriting the event is that the GS is paying for insurance for that month.

The prize pool was established a week out from the event (we required pre-payment) and as ticket sales were good the extra prize money was put into terrain prizes that got redistributed to the community that provided terrain.

This brings up a couple of points. I felt that in terms of a sustainable model it is necessary for some events to make a (small) profit to make up for other events that may make a loss. Also, the idea that the extra prize money (from over budget ticket sales) went into terrain prizes with the hope and expectation that at the next event we will be able to borrow the terrain prizes back to use as terrain on the tables. With terrain in particular, its something that all the players can enjoy.

Regards

Mark C

[ArchonCryx]

They can spend it on booze and hookers for all I care...

Rightio, I guess I've been found out, my first instinct when starting as TO was: "Right, screw em, I'm going to make my own event, with booze.... and hookers..."

Bender-con!

At least I wound up with an event with booze, that's two better than Bender managed!

[Ruleslawyer]

Rightio, I guess I've been found out, my first instinct when starting as TO was: "Right, screw em, I'm going to make my own event, with booze.... and hookers..."

Bender-con!

At least I wound up with an event with booze, that's two better than Bender managed!

So at Bender-con do you get 1 $300 hookerbot or 100 $3 hookerbots?

[Drazah]

So at Bender-con do you get 1 $300 hookerbot or 100 $3 hookerbots?

the line is 300 $1 hooker bots

but sigged anyway (:

[Ruleslawyer]

the line is 300 $1 hooker bots

but sigged anyway (:

Probably but I have higher standards

[mjb]

Coming soon...............



UNDERBELLY:TO's on the run


Some say these criminal masterminds are just a figment of the imagination, creations from the minds of self-publicizing dickheads with nothing better to do except pump up their own tyres. But what if they're not.......................


Tonight, Shane Bourne stars as the TO "Mr Big" a potty-mouthed lover of all things diseased. Watch his first steps into the seedy underworld as he realizes that he can buy Mars Bars for a dollar and sell them to unsuspecting wargamers for a dollar fifty.

A story no gamer can afford to miss.........

This post has been edited by mjb: Aug 3 2010, 11:36 PM

[Durkah]

Just to show a bit of difference... a tournament I went to recently had a venue hire of $550 for 2 days in a country town.

My "council" charges $900+ for a 2 day venue hire. It's possibly gone up since last year in terms of $.

For a venue outside of our council that can hold more people and be less "crowed" it costs another $300 on top of what the council charge.

Venues aren't cheap. People who get venues for free or next to nothing are lucky. I find country communities are prepared to help out non-profit groups more than in towards the city. They also have the benefit of pretty much doubling their population for 2 days, which is great for business etc. Or in the case of Tasmania's bringing some fresh, untainted DNA into their society. No more birth defects!

For someone who is asking TO's to present a financial statement, are you going to start by providing us with your last 5 years of financial statements for tournaments you have held? Do we ask the tax office to make sure the last 5 years of your tax returns don't hold any weird discrepancies?

I am more than happy for the TO who has probably spent 50 + hours running around trying to organise the tournament to buy a Slab out of the money from the tournament. If that's what it takes for the person running it to want to run it again next year, fine by me, hell, I bet everyone would be willing to put in $2 each and buy them a slab.

As long as by the end of the event, everyone had fun, added people to their tournament "hit list", crossed people off it, made new friends, enjoyed catching up with other community members you see once every 2/3 months, etc, then that's all its about. I am quite sure if the TO's could run the event with a $0 cost to it they would. But in reality they can't.