Rewarding fluff at Lords: a proposal, Panel scoring doesnt include fluff but it needs to be encouraged Options

[trigger happy]

SO would 2% be better, for example? ANd I give a subjective prize for the best looking fluff effort perhaps?

+1 to this. 2% seems reasonable and even the totally dim witted like myself can at least make a little effort by naming squads etc to get a little bit of those points anyway. plus a prize for what you feel is the best fluff at the tourny will give the people who like this aspect of the game some recognition for their time and effort.

[Bane]

yeah yeah... sounds good.

but how do you practically score it?


And sure it may be easy to theme a space marine army or a guard army, even and eldar army.


But theming a tyranid army or a necron army is kind of hard. Names for units is one thing, but having an actuall theme to the list is another, and how do you subjectivley mark the comparison.

My nid army is from hive fleet jormungandr, the only mention of it at all in the book refers to it using harpy's, so I have included one. How many people will notice this inclusion as a fluffy choice?

The fact is you should include theme as its own prize. I always considered theme was part of the voting of players choice. I have never voted with painting as my only thing to look for, but army choice and thematic aspects. I also think that it already does partly come into painting, as most of the top scoring army's have included some kind of thematic nature to the painting.

I say leave it out of the overall score, it is too hard to mark objectivley and give some armies a huge leg up, mainly all those with prepackaged recongnised fluff. But at the same time it discourages variety, as every single army will be forced to comply to its stereotypical fluff standpoint in order to ensure max points. For example all chaos armies will have to follow sacred nubmers, all white scars armies will need to include bikes etc.

Names is one thing, but theme and fluff is completley different.

[Spakka]

Back on topic, We need to discuss if 5% is too large a slice. I want to encourage fluff particularly extra effort from players who enjoy doing such things more than try to force everyone to scurry for obligatory points...

In that case, just stick with a seperate prize for the best fluff entry - one each for both for high lords and open comps. Should work well, those of us who bother to do up fluff will probably be doing so anyway regardless of whether or not there will be a prize.

I'm another one who typically names all squads/unit commanders/vehicles and so forth wioth often a 1 page story and I like others, have sterted to wonder if my effort is even noticed let alone appreciated...

Get that feeling all the time these days - have gone to many events where not a single person has bothered to read my fluff. However, occasionally I do come across someone who will take the time read it, and they do appreciate the effort, which is why I continue to write fluff for each army.

But theming a tyranid army or a necron army is kind of hard. Names for units is one thing, but having an actuall theme to the list is another, and how do you subjectivley mark the comparison.

Several years back now, I saw a themed necron army where the background had been done as a really cool poem, describing the awakening, battle, and return to slumber of the necron army, all units named too. My necron army is based on the vanguard of the tomb (ie, the first things likely to be activated when the tomb is breached) - scarabs, tomb spyders, flayed ones and warriors.

And since the release of the new dex and a bunch of new options, Tyranids are pretty easy to theme now. I myself can finally field the pure tunneler swarm army that I've wanted to run since 3rd ed days - raveners, the addition of the trygon in the normal codex (not IA only) and even rippers can now get a tunnel ability. I've got 12 metal raveners and enough rippers for roughly 20 bases which have been sitting on the backburner for years waiting for something like this.

[Biggy]

Giving Tyranids a theme is actually pretty easy. 'Nids adapt quickly t their environment and that's the key. Say the swarm has been on a swamp/watery world. sculpting webbing etc, and writing about the various mutations that the swarm has undergone would qualify. Talking about the native peoples they've absorbed and adapted.

If people don't want to do fluff (or can't be bothered) that's OK, but please don't justify it by saying it can't be done. Any army can have background fluff and theme with a bit of thought.

[Ordzmek]

And sure it may be easy to theme a space marine army or a guard army, even and eldar army.
But theming a tyranid army or a necron army is kind of hard. Names for units is one thing, but having an actuall theme to the list is another, and how do you subjectivley mark the comparison.

Giving Tyranids a theme is actually pretty easy. 'Nids adapt quickly t their environment and that's the key. Say the swarm has been on a swamp/watery world. sculpting webbing etc, and writing about the various mutations that the swarm has undergone would qualify. Talking about the native peoples they've absorbed and adapted.

It's the adaptivity that makes them so hard to theme. Against some armies, the Tyranids might feel that throwing mass amounts of Hormagaunts into the fray is the most useful thing to do, and against another army, the same hive fleet might decide to forgo Hormagaunts entirely and throw in hundreds of Raveners to tunnel.

The thing with Tyranids is that they aren't bound in the same way Marines and Eldar would be. Non-Tyranid armies can only churn out so many warriors at a much slower rate - how long does it take a Space Marine to become battle ready, from the moment of induction? For a Tyranid, the biomass goes into the pools, and new Tyranids are grown at a much more rapid rate, and are changed at a much more rapid rate. Where it might take, for example, Howling Banshees hundreds - thousands - of years to finally work in a change to their training and battle style, it takes the Tyranids one batch to make Hormagaunts more lithe, and less armoured.

My list is a very versatile list and is themed more along the lines of what units I want to have in the army, rather than making them a deliberately shooty army, or a deliberately fast army.

I say leave it out of the overall score, it is too hard to mark objectivley and give some armies a huge leg up, mainly all those with prepackaged recongnised fluff. But at the same time it discourages variety, as every single army will be forced to comply to its stereotypical fluff standpoint in order to ensure max points. For example all chaos armies will have to follow sacred nubmers, all white scars armies will need to include bikes etc.

I don't know about the discouraging variety part, but I agree with the fact that it gives some armies a huge leg up. Chaos armies, for example - it would be so much easier to write fluff/background stories for Chaos than it would for Tyranids, because the Chaos warriors are sentient, conscious beings and can actually have a story thrown behind them. You can tell a story of how they were shunned by the rest of the legion, or how their commander was so egotistical that he believed himself to be the Emperor Incarnate, a vision that was encouraged by Slaanesh, causing him to rebel against the Imperium in an attempt to slay the Emperor and take his throne.

Tyranids don't care for thrones. They don't care for the affairs of mere men. They're just hungry. To write a Tyranid background, you could just about say "They splintered from [insert Hive Fleet] and were recently woken up when they reached an agri-world, and the little bastards are hungry!"

I've actually been thinking about it, and I think I've come up with something that is acceptable and should get me some marks, but it's hardly theming my army and it's hardly a decent story. It's basically what I've been saying - hungry bugs - but told from the perspective of an Imperial Guardsman in a last-ditch transmission as the planet was finally overrun.

[Lonestar]

I managed to name all my big bugs and units afew years ago. Hell I even gave every one of my Grey Knights names and even named all the squads.

Background once was apart of comp at tournaments, and it was around a quarter of the comp score, back in the day.

So Alex

[Lonestar]

Tyranids don't care for thrones. They don't care for the affairs of mere men. They're just hungry. To write a Tyranid background, you could just about say "They splintered from [insert Hive Fleet] and were recently woken up when they reached an agri-world, and the little bastards are hungry!"

Just write the fluff from the point of view of the victim, and name the units the same way..... it's not that hard to do, I mean, you managed a essay up there......

[Azure Fade]

Personally I wouldn't want fluff to be part of the overall percentage.

I wouldn't mind however for each of the high Lords and aspirants having their own prize for best fluff, rewarding people who put the time and effort into that section of their army.

[Ordzmek]

Just write the fluff from the point of view of the victim, and name the units the same way..... it's not that hard to do, I mean, you managed a essay up there......

None of my units are anything special though. Standard Termagants, standard Hormagants, standard Trygon Prime. The only really 'customised' unit are the Warriors who have boneswords and toxin sacs... Aside from that, and the rending claws on my raveners, not one of my other units has an upgrade.

[Lonestar]

None of my units are anything special though. Standard Termagants, standard Hormagants, standard Trygon Prime. The only really 'customised' unit are the Warriors who have boneswords and toxin sacs... Aside from that, and the rending claws on my raveners, not one of my other units has an upgrade.

Nothing special for them, now imagine a lone guardsman with a lasgun.......

[rat of vengence]

Back on topic, We need to discuss if 5% is too large a slice. I want to encourage fluff particularly extra effort from players who enjoy doing such things more than try to force everyone to scurry for obligatory points...

SO would 2% be better, for example? ANd I give a subjective prize for the best looking fluff effort perhaps?

Yeah, I like fluff and a bit of background. I dont want to oblige people to go overboard if they don't want to, but rewarding the effort of those who do is appealing and I believe is an essential element.

I am all for this. I like that fluff gets recognized, but at the same time it shouldn't have a large impact on the overall scores. 2% is a good compromise, enough it shouldn't matter much, but enough that it is worth doing in case you need that 1 or 2%. A seperate prize, subjectively judged by you would be great. No need for a panel here

RoV

[Lonestar]

I am all for this. I like that fluff gets recognized, but at the same time it shouldn't have a large impact on the overall scores. 2% is a good compromise, enough it shouldn't matter much, but enough that it is worth doing in case you need that 1 or 2%. A seperate prize, subjectively judged by you would be great. No need for a panel here

RoV

2% wont affect the results too much?

Go and have a look at the results for the last 5 tournaments, then come back and revisit that comment

[Bane]

most tournaments the top 4 places are decided by 2% of the score

[rat of vengence]

Then perhaps those few need to put a tad bit of effort in and write a few paragraphs?

RoV

[ArchonCryx]

It's the adaptivity that makes them so hard to theme. Against some armies, the Tyranids might feel that throwing mass amounts of Hormagaunts into the fray is the most useful thing to do, and against another army, the same hive fleet might decide to forgo Hormagaunts entirely and throw in hundreds of Raveners to tunnel.

The thing with Tyranids is that they aren't bound in the same way Marines and Eldar would be. Non-Tyranid armies can only churn out so many warriors at a much slower rate - how long does it take a Space Marine to become battle ready, from the moment of induction? For a Tyranid, the biomass goes into the pools, and new Tyranids are grown at a much more rapid rate, and are changed at a much more rapid rate. Where it might take, for example, Howling Banshees hundreds - thousands - of years to finally work in a change to their training and battle style, it takes the Tyranids one batch to make Hormagaunts more lithe, and less armoured.

My list is a very versatile list and is themed more along the lines of what units I want to have in the army, rather than making them a deliberately shooty army, or a deliberately fast army.
I don't know about the discouraging variety part, but I agree with the fact that it gives some armies a huge leg up. Chaos armies, for example - it would be so much easier to write fluff/background stories for Chaos than it would for Tyranids, because the Chaos warriors are sentient, conscious beings and can actually have a story thrown behind them. You can tell a story of how they were shunned by the rest of the legion, or how their commander was so egotistical that he believed himself to be the Emperor Incarnate, a vision that was encouraged by Slaanesh, causing him to rebel against the Imperium in an attempt to slay the Emperor and take his throne.

Tyranids don't care for thrones. They don't care for the affairs of mere men. They're just hungry. To write a Tyranid background, you could just about say "They splintered from [insert Hive Fleet] and were recently woken up when they reached an agri-world, and the little bastards are hungry!"

I've actually been thinking about it, and I think I've come up with something that is acceptable and should get me some marks, but it's hardly theming my army and it's hardly a decent story. It's basically what I've been saying - hungry bugs - but told from the perspective of an Imperial Guardsman in a last-ditch transmission as the planet was finally overrun.

I think talking about the fast adaptability as explaining the background of your force and thus it is fluid and ever changing sounds like a cool thematic background to me.

You already half wrote it in that post. Some copy paste, edit, add a couple of paragraphs, and you're done. Probably half the theme points right there!

Not everyone has to do it and you don't need to go all out. But if you're hoping to win the tourney then yes, I want to see some sort of effort on the background. So awarding a small portion of pts for it seems appropriate.

And yeah, a prize for the cool characters who pull out all the stops! These sorts of things never fail to impress me, when Badfang mocked up a Ork Slugga (Howe darn big are they?) or a Space Marine Helmet, or a massive banner for the army list and so on, these are the sorts of things that I strongly feel add a real wow factor to a top flight tournament. Lords of Terra is supposed to be a multi faceted event for all hobbyists. This is an area that I really love and seems to have suffered some neglect, particularly as comp has moved to pure power assessment, so I want to encourage and celebrate this aspect of the hobby.

[Biggy]

It's the adaptivity that makes them so hard to theme. Against some armies, the Tyranids might feel that throwing mass amounts of Hormagaunts into the fray is the most useful thing to do, and against another army, the same hive fleet might decide to forgo Hormagaunts entirely and throw in hundreds of Raveners to tunnel.

Mate, its not about putting an army together for a specific opponent. It's about the theme of the army as a whole. Army list construction is not the be-all and end-all of theme. The look and 'feel' of an army go a long way to putting theme in before you write up anything.

"The 'blah-blah' swarm splintered off from hive fleet leviathan early last (insert date here) and has remained isolated upon (insert world here) for some time. The (insert world here) has been a constant battleground since its discovery with Imperial, Tau, Orks and even eldar claiming it as their own over time. As such the 'blah-blah' swarm has had to adapt continually to survive against a myriad of opposition for the planet and as such the swarm appears as somewhat of a hodge-podge of genetic bio-modification. The Tyrant (named 'The Black Maw' by local guard regiments) has successfully led his swarm in the consumption of many forms of xenos life and the overall appearance of the swarm reflects this."


I just made that up on the spot based on your description. See my previous post. Don't say it can't be done because you don't want to or don't know how to do it. Ask for some ideas on the forum, dicuss it with your mates and you'll come up with ideas. Use my one above as a base if you want.

[Angmar]

Personally i would rather see a separate award for best themed army etc, rather then including it as part of the overall score. As really, i don't see the point in markings someones army down in comp only to then give them points for theme.

[Vanilla Dice]

i think it sounds like a great idea. . . The army that win's should be a great themed army, no over the top and great painting. . . An all round great army that someone has put the extra effort into.

[Reunion-Round]

Nothing special for them, now imagine a lone guardsman with a lasgun.......

And I imagine him kicking ass and taking names...


+1 for 2% of the overall score. (broken down to... does the army have fluff/unit names and the others points for 'is it presented').
+1 for a best fluff or fluff presentation score (Or both!)


For those whining about the nids/necrons thing. Think what the imperium calls them, or their enemies, hell name all your bugs after what Orks might call them something. Not each squad, but each species, so all the termagants are named one thing etc.

It's really not that hard to be even a little creative with it.



I also think originality should be re-warded with a prize, not points (because some pople play specific pre-made armies, , because they like them and disadvantaging someone for playing a pre-made army would be bad) but with a prize. To bring out the more outlandish and unique armies that would still make sense for a tournament level.

Something like Brad Morins Helvis Chaos marines would be something cool to win that prize with for example. Given out at the TO's discretion.

I feel LoT and HLoT should re-ward everything it can in this hobby, and have the participants fight for each of those places.

[Reunion-Round]

Personally i would rather see a separate award for best themed army etc, rather then including it as part of the overall score. As really, i don't see the point in markings someones army down in comp only to then give them points for theme.

+1 again.

Take my Khorne army for example. Highly themed, but a hard list. You also need to consider that MarkC's rankings for comp are for exactly that... comp. Including a theme score in comp will throw out this to some degree.

+1 for putting the theme score as part of the painting/presentation scores.