Hey all!

With Rumble in the Bronx now looking like it's gonna be run mid April, I may still be in the country!

So now I need to think about what army to take..

Thinking seriously about going back to the elves.. But with no lords = no strar dragon, here's where I'm at:

Mage
General
Lvl 2 - Shadow
Dispel scroll
155

Noble
BSB
Great weapon
Armour of caledor
Guardian Phoenix
168

10 archers
standard
120

10 archers
standard
120

29 spearmen
f/c
286

18 white lions
f/c
standard of discipline
magic attacks item on champ
330

20 phoenix guard
f/c
razor standard
375

5 dragon princes
mus, std
flaming banner
190

lion chariot
140

3 eagles
150

Rocks in at 2034..
I'm currently over in special.. by 35pts..

So, A: what do people think overall?
B: How do I best cut those points? Has to be in special.. which makes me sad..

Thanks!

Mouse

I dont think you have enough bodies in any of the units.

What I would do is drop either WL or PG. Use those points to get more bodies in the rest of your units (including spears/dragon princes). That way you will have units that can actually take a bit of damage from missiles and still be useful in combat.

Hope that helps

Thanks for the thoughts buddy! Dropping 1 complete unit is one of the options I'm tossing around.. That being said, I don't know if I wanna pump too many more points into any of these units.. I'd probably be more tempted to buy a couple of small swordmaster units or some other cheap, choppy units.. Get as many threats on the board as possible.
Realistically, templates are an issue.. They always will be, but rather than bump up units to absorb, I am thinking. More units could be a solution.. I kinda enjoy msu style builds, and trying to combine multiple units..
don't know.. That's why I'm kinda curious to see what the interwebs has to say..

More ideas anyone?

Mouse

Drop the lion chariot mouse and just use a normal one.

Drop the Lion Chariot, give the Phoenix Guard champ the gem of courage and take a small unit of 6 naked swordmasters.

No idea if it is much better but seeing as you have said you have a preference for msu then it fits.

Al

Actually that's not too bad..

Will have a play.

Thanks!

I KNEW the lion chariot would have to go.. tis sad.. but oh well..

Mouse

Off the top of my head....

- Std from Dragon Princes (-20pts for banner, -10 points for flaming)
- Drop one model from either the white lions or the PG (depending on personal choice -15 pts)
- Add one spearman.

Done.

The best thing about this solution is that you get to keep mostly the army you have chosen.



Alternatively, in addition to the above....Can I make a suggestion though about selection in general? I've been trying for six months to get spearmen to work but I just can't. Literally can't. I would scrap them, and you could try as core instead:

2x10 archers, muso (230 points)
1x23 archers, muso, banner, flaming banner (270 points)

500 on the nose. You can reform deep to "hang on" if they get stuck in combat, and 43 shots + the withering gives you a good shooting phase without being OTT.

Losing the banners won't be a drama for blood and glory, you still have 3 banners, BSB and General for fort 6 against breaking point 2.

With 2 units of HE elites, your combat abaility should be too badly hurt either.

I actually didn't really want a std on the dragon princes, but realized I didn't have any flaming attacks in there, which made me sad..

The good thing about the core suggestions you've made, is that it matches up rather well with my 2250 / 2500pt lists.. Means I have to paint less models.. hmm.. That's worth considering just from that perspective..

The spears aren't awesome.. which is why the lion chariot is in there..
I find that between the BSB & chariot they can actually hold out ok.. and then mindrazor if it's available can really help.. so they're not BAD.. not great though.

Hmm.. definitely food for thought..

Ok - so there's a few options, but I think the crux of the list is there..

What do we think? looking at a tourney that will most likely be comped pretty hard.. would you make many changes? would we think it'd go ok? would we be licking our lips coming up against this list??

Thanks for the thoughts so far guys!!

Mouse

Mouse,

I had the same thoughts about spears + chariots. I also thought about different buffing spells (+2 tough from life, Shield fo Saphery, -D3 toughness / strength, Soulblight etc). In the end I realised:

a) Chariots are fairly easy to kill so I can't rely on them to support my spears.
b) Spells can be dispelled / fail to cast.
c) All those options work fairly close to equally as well on Archers (especially when I am working more on minimising casualties against the spears than on killing enemies)
d) archers can also shoot
e) Multiple S3 shots aren't really scary enough to warrant a comp hit.

So in the end, after much trial and just as much error, I gave up and went with archer core.

I can't see very hard comp....You have.....nothing really mean. It's solid all phases, and will take effort to use correctly. I would consider changing you magic though...maybe going Death / choose spells. That gives you soulblight (which is IMHO better than the shadow debuffs) plus you could chose snipe spells to kill off any L4 opponents or other nasties like monsters. Might be a better deck, and keep you away from "mindrazor" comp hits.....

(also you probably don't need mindrazor if you are planning on using WL / PG for combat....

All fair points.. although it's really the "don't have to paint any more models" that's REALLY winning out for me

Yeah - I'm looking for a solid, but will take some playing type list.. I find they're the most fun..

The lore on the lvl 2 is basically a hangover from dropping the lvl 4 shadow mage..
There won't be any lord level characters at rumble.. So it's not AS much of an issue, that being said, death sniping a BSB is always fun.. I just find she needs to get in close to do it.. which means she gets vunerable.. which is why I steer away from death with the girls..

The other option is sticking with high.. shield, arrow attraction, drain magic are all solid options.. hmm..

I think the crux of it is there though..
Feel free to keep the ideas coming though..

Thanks!!

Mouse

Spearmen work with Shadow Magic. They just need to be able to soak up one round of combat, and their job is done. If you need them holding something up for longer than that, you've already messed up.

High is great in small games/for level 2 mages as you often get all your spells off.

If you did, I would drop the spearmen for full archers or seaguard. Archers are better bang for buck imo.

Yeah, have pretty much settled on all archer core, prob best bang, works well with the dragon list at 2250 and above, and no more painting..

High magic with that is also pretty much locked in methinks..

Mouse.

Thanks for the feedback all!!

Ok - So the list has been reworked a little, and now looks thusly:

Noble
BSB
Great weapon
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Phoenix
168

Mage
General
Lvl 2 - High Magic
Dispel scroll
155

10 archers
Std
120

10 archers
Std
120

23 archers
full cmd
flaming banner
288

18 White lions
Full cmd
+1 Ld banner
magical attacks item
330

19 Phoenix Guard
Full cmd
Armour piercing banner
gem of courage
370

Lion chariot
140

5 Dragon princes
150

3 x 1 Eagle
150

Total: 1991

Ok - so Rumble is 2000pts, No lords, heavy comp.
Thoughts about this list in that kind of environment?

Mouse

Looks really cool Mouse,

When is Rumble this yeah btw?

At this stage looking April.. mid-late..

Venue liaison is out of the country for a couple of weeks.. we'll lock it in after that.

Mouse

Just a thought, maybe drop the lion chariot and put in a normal one and this should let you get 2 more DP, or at least 1 more and make another a muso? Or even a standard? Otherwise i dont mind it. I think the big archer block is better than the spearmen from the first list too.

Ok - a little re-working atm..
Realized there's a good chance Hammertime is coming up in March.. which is 1500 as well..

Here's where I'm at:

1500:
1 Noble @ 161.0 Pts
General; Dragon Armour
Enchanted Shield
Biting Blade
1 Great Eagle

1 Noble @ 211.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Shield; Battle Standard
Guardian Phoenix
Dragonhelm
1 Great Eagle

10 Archers @ 120.0 Pts
Longbow; Standard

10 First Archers @ 145.0 Pts
Longbow; Standard Bearer; Musician; Champ
Banner of the Eternal Flame

10 Archers @ 120.0 Pts
Longbow; Standard

10 White Lions @ 177.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Lion Pelt
1 Guardian - The Other Tricksters Shard

10 White Lions @ 172.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Lion Pelt
1 Guardian - Gem of Courage

7 Swordmasters @ 105.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour

5 Dragon Princes @ 185.0 Pts
Barding; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield
1 Drakemaster - Amulet of Light

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

Total Army Cost: 1496.0


2000:
1 Noble @ 166.0 Pts
General; Dragon Armour
Sword of Might
Enchanted Shield
1 Great Eagle

1 Noble @ 218.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Battle Standard
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Phoenix
1 Great Eagle

1 Mage @ 100.0 Pts
Magic Level 1; Lore of High Magic

19 First Archers @ 275.0 Pts
Longbow; Light Armour; Standard Bearer; Musician; Champ
Banner of the Eternal Flame

10 Archers @ 120.0 Pts
Longbow; Standard

10 Archers @ 120.0 Pts
Longbow; Standard

18 White Lions @ 315.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Lion Pelt; Standard; Musician; Champ
Standard of Discipline

20 Phoenix Guard @ 385.0 Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Razor Standard
1 Keeper of the Flame - Gem of Courage

5 Dragon Princes @ 150.0 Pts
Barding; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

Total Army Cost: 1999.0

At 2.4 - 2.5K
I gets a dragon lord, the dragon princes, and phoenix guard get dropped, lions get +1 movement, and I play run and mash

Thoughts??

Mouse

Ok. Bit late to the discussion but...
Why sword of might on noble when GW still has ASF?

A single level 1? The upgrade to lvl 2 is crucial I would think just for the further +1 to dispell alone.

What's with the archer love? Seems like what you really want is sea guard in that block (possibly even bigger absorbing one little archer unit). I have completely missed the memo here so fill me in.

To pay for all this I'd consider turning the razor standard into a banner of war and turning dragon princes into reavers just with spear and muso.

Sword of might because of enchanted shield save.. also magical attacks for when I come up against SOMEONE (Not looking at anyone Paulie) decides to rock up with an all ethereal VC list..

Level 1 is basically there to burn a scroll and cast drain magic.. which hopefully helps with the dispel dice issue.. after turn 2, mages should be dying if I play right..

Nope.. sea guard = more expensive and less range.. and then just combat res for my opponent, since they suck pretty hard..
the archers can deploy wide, shoot something with Regen (hydras / hellpits) and hopefully ping a few wounds off without getting close.. then the other small units can either help - or clear chaff.. The big unit is there to make the most of flaming.

Razor std makes PG more than just a tarpit though.. and dropping dragon princes to reavers means they just die easily.. I'm trying to get some reliable hittiness.. and since I don't massively rate sea guard.. it's not an issue (I've come around to the archers & spearmen > sea guard line of thought.

Mouse

Alright. Understanding how much mess this list would make of my woodies means I'm loathe to give advice but...
Reliable hittiness is much more the province of lion chariots surely. Second turn they are still Str 6 and str 5.
Also I still think not upgrading a mage is pretty crazy. Unless your playing gobbos. Don't tell me you don't want Curse of arrows.

Lol..
Yeah - I am a massive fan of the chariot - BUT 4 wounds with a 4+ save vs 5 wounds with a 2+ save, and 2+ ward vs flaming...
Also comes down to hero points.. I have like 16 or 18 to play with, and can't reasonably configure the eagles to get any more..

So yeah, a lvl 2 would be sexy.. but if I want to keep the eagle riders, I don't know how it's work..

And I like the idea of 2 eagle riders..

Mouse

You know if we put your list next to my high elf lists it would be like "This is your army...This is your army on meth." But I like it.

Eagle riders are a gateway drug..

Be curious to see what you'd do with HE + Rumble restrictions though buddy!!

I miss my dragon..

Mouse

Because you asked here’s my rough attempt at Rumble ready HE list ....but it’s not going to happen. These models (I have them) are about 1% painted. Maybe Rumble 2050?
So purely hypothetically I would probably play test dropping the second mage for a noble of some kind which might find me points for a) that item that gives a unit magical attacks somewhere and b) another eagle, or just a sweet tooled up noble.
That said it’s nice to say, “Magic is mine”.

29 Lorthern sea guard w shields Full command and Banner of Flaming
10 Archers muso
20 Phoenix Guard, FC Banner of War
2 Lion Chariots
6 Dragon Princes, Muso, Standard, Banner of Ellyrion
2 Eagles
1 Noble –BSB, GW, Guardian Phoenix Armour of Calendor
Mage lvl 2 Annulian Crystal, Talisman of Protection
Mage lvl 2 Opal Amulet, Jewel of the Dusk

Not bad..

Still not sold on the sea guard.. but the rest is ok..
You have got a decent magic phase.. could go hard and try and fit in ruby ring / whatever bounds you can..

What lores would you think though?

Mouse

Although shadow is awesome I am relying on casters to come up with magical attacks. So atleast one has to have a magic missile inclined lore.

I'd be prepared to go both fire or both the high elf lore. But I think one lore of light and one high lore would be best. I could roll badly one game or two but most games will have very sweet options with drain magic as a clincher against truly magic reliant foes.
I love Phas protection for this list.

Oops. Too many points in heroes. I would consider dropping a mage for some shadow warriors, another eagle, more phoenix guard, even giving the dragon princes the wailing banner for a laugh.

Oops. Too many points in heroes. I would consider dropping a mage for some shadow warriors - Wrong
another eagle, - Not bad

more phoenix guard, - Wrong

even giving the dragon princes the wailing banner for a laugh. - Wrong

You can however get 2 level 2's annulian crystal, dispel scroll, banner of sorcery, ruby ring within the points..

Or you could forget defence and chuck in choose spells + extra spell..

Mouse

Fair enough on all points cept shadow warriors (though a couple more PG never hurts).
What have you got against scouts? So what if their hatred rule is mostly redundant. They deploy better, march and shoot and 5 of them can flank charge a small archers unit and win.

5 arrows achieves next to nothing, they can flank and win a small archer unit, until said archer unit holds due to steadfast, reforms and then beats them round two..

I just haven't found them actually able to do.. er.. anything..

Mouse

mouse why not take an amulet of light (everyone has magic attacks) on one of the champs?

10 archers won't have steadfast after taking one wound. I think your blinded by eagle love. 5 scouts is only 30pts more than an eagle, harder to shoot (esp in forest) great in buildings, more (tho weaker) attacks (with rerolls).
Heck they're only four points more than armoured archers and you seem to be ready for a second date with them too.

front rank counts for steadfast.. So archers are steadfast until they take 6 wounds..

Eagles have the movement to redeploy, can more easily hide behind terrain, don't have to worry about move distances for pivoting / properly redirecting..

5 scouts is nearly 2 eagles.. that's more than twice the effectiveness..

5 attacks @ s3 vs 3 attacks @ s4, 1 auto-hitting.. I know which I'd prefer, esp vs war machines and the like.

The only reason to buy armour for archers is to fill in core points..

I'd rather reavers over shadow warriors any day.. but still, that's 2 eagles I could get..

Mouse

Holy crap I've been doing steadfast wrong I think. Wow.

However you get no stomp vs warmachines, so there. And its at the end of combat.

Yeah - front rank count for steadfast, not for combat res..

Yeah - but eagle at T4 will also live, since he's more able to pick his fights..

Mouse

Oh and I enjoyed your in-love math "5 shadow warriors are almost two eagles". Because 20 is such a triflling matter when the magic is there.

After your "5 shadow warriors is ONLY 30pts more than an eagle"

At least I'm only finding 20pts..

Mouse