Hey guys.

I have 6 boxes of Vargheists/Crypt Horrors and I am unsure how to put them all together.

I was thinking around 8 Vargheists and 10 Crypt Horrors.

Is that a good mix?

Thanks

firstly holy crap and second yes

I bought a garden of morr too which i might try to take advantage of for some interesting basing. But more likely to use the garden as a filler for a horde of ghouls.

Or did I get too many? I did fear this...

I was proxy playing with 2 small units of Vargheists and a larger block of Crypt Horrors.

I would say 12 crypt horrors min... 2x 6 man units will go well with some mortis engines... 2x9 man could be a real tough mudder to move as well, but the 2x6 man units should be gold enough for you.

Agree.

All horrors... Sadly the vargheists aren't that great... But definitely make 12 horrors, use them as proxies as vargheists, then make the last 6 horrors after you agree with me

I used a unit of 3 that flank charged a unit of dragon princes, they did not kill them...

Cheers,
Sedgey

You should have seen my last proxy unit.

2 be' lakors
a few minotaurs
a few trolls of various types
and an ogre maneater and tyrant

I might keep the last 2 boxes untouched and play a few more games before i commit.

I do like being able to zoom across the field. Gives me a great sense of freedom.

This one time my 4 archers killed a hydra in combat.

Archers in cc are the best way to kill Hydras.

I tried dual units of vargheists against ogres and they worked well. Didn't lose combat and because they can move so far they really messed with the ogre line and movement.

The ogre player had lots of units looking to get off big charges.

Thats really helpful... Just sharing my own personal experience... Hey, at least what I have to say is relevant...

Truth is I liked them on paper, and the tactical flexibility of a unit that has the ability to march 20, fly, gets extra attacks from frenzy, and being flying skirmishers, can deploy facing backwards (to mitigate frenzy) and still march the full 20 to prepare for flank charges seems really great...

Maybe I just expected too much from the unit, but the downside of the unit is also significant... They tend to die quickly with only t4 and no save... They are also far too expensive to take in larger units, especially in an army that must take 25% in average infantry, and at least 30-40% in characters...

I think they can have their place, mostly in larger battles, but between horrors, grave guard & ethereal units, I think there're better choices in the VC army...

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
Sedgey

Iam building 18 horrors - forget Vargs (soz they really dont work)

I'd argue my comment was just as relevant

In reference to your second post, I agree in that they don't belong in most of the lists that people tend to gravitate towards with VC's, hence everyone's criticisms. On paper they are clearly better than the Crypt Horrors, but they don't synergise with the shambling horde like the horrors do (especially with regard to longevity and magic synergy).

I would be running them alongside Black Knights/Coaches/Terrorgheists - but the lists that I have come up with mucking around with the book aren't the usual big infantry block lists that most people run with when using VC's.

P.S. Mathhammer says you should have won that combat easily against the Dragon Princes. 2 kills + flank & charge vs. maybe a wound in return?

I've played against both, the vargs were like free victory points since frenzy is such an issue for them with there massive charge range, they just throw themselves into one of my hordes of dwarfs.

Horrors on the other hand are hard to shift, especially with a mortis engine near by and a lore of beasts caster.

This is not the sort of thing I want to read when anticipating getting a stack of Vargheists. They look pretty awesome.

They look cool, but really aren't that great in play. Used them in a tourney recently, lets just say the unit of 3 will never be added to. Lol. But i also used a unit of 6 horrors and they were the stars imo. I will be adding to them to probably make two units of 6.

Once you try fitting them in with the Black Knights/Coaches/Terrorgheists, I think you will find that you will rapidly start to run out of points unless you are taking 3k plus... At 2400, over 1200 points are likely to go into core & characters... And I think that's a pretty safe bet for every build of VCs... Once you have the above mentioned, you are looking at only about 200ish points left... When you could be taking hex/banshees/horrors, I don't think the expense of the vargheists really fit... I guess it's similar to how I found my kroxies currently... Too expensive to run big units, and too glass hammer to run in smaller ones... And they have s6 and a 4+ save...

Math hammer is good, and I would not have thrown in the vargheists without weighting up my options, but I'm sure we can all appreciate the real world application of math hammer and how often the dice can abandon you when required.

Agree that the models look great tho!!

Cheers,
Sedgey

This, and it can happen against more than just dwarfs!

yes skirm flyers u can make them face nothing turn 1, and fly them and make them face nothing turn 2, then by turn 3 they can do something. if they have not been shot/magic to pieces at there T4, if playing a beastmen army taught me anything, something that's expensive with no save no matter how attractive it looks just doesn't work out in a game of cannons and what a chance at saving against a wound realy means no matter of it's 4+ or 5+

C horrors are Unbreakable non stupid trolls basicly, just tougher, which is better than the St5 trolls have if your allowed to run Beasts and Vampire lore, threatening Re-rolls to hit or re-rolls to wound and +1 St +1 T and all else fails you can give them wounds back, more 4-5+ regens before the unit dies and more attacks back...

all in all what vampires have access to in lores suits the C-horrors + the mortis

A guy at adepticon ran at 3000 points:
1 master necro level 4
x5 units 5 dire wolves
x2 units 10 dire wolves
x2 terrogheists
x2 units of 100 zombies
x2 units 6 (or 7) vargheists
x1 unit 18 vargheists

At 2200 he dropped the small vargheist units, some wolves and a terrorgheist.

How do you stop a horde of 18 of the damned things flapping down a flank?
In the games I came over to watch units just exploded in front of them, then he'd roll the flank of the enemy and run down the line doing 2 combats per turn (overrun into engaged units). It was truely awesome.

ok, 18 is crazy, like i can't see my self even buying 9 then unit filling 9! i can see that, but they 1, must of passed LD test, terrain must not been a problem for the 18x flying skirmisher bases at 40mm, that 20" does allow for a fair bit buy 18 at extra 1/2 inch in-between? then reforming as u please can help.

like anything in VC in BIG units, u can work unbreakable to your favor. i can see this list being caught against a few opponents, and i have not run 100x zombies yet as i know a 55 pt slayer could hold it all game by himself, and without a terror giest banshees or hexwraiths he would be hard to kill even with gaze of nagash at your disposal.

also he wasn't playing the overcharge rule? i can see re-directors making more problems for that unit fly or no

ide like to do 100x zombies, but without hexwaiths and cairn wraiths, seems like a good target to be held up all game by vs a decent player, also if they flap down ure flank those zombies are left crowling at 4" a turn to catch up, just move deploy correctly? that's if u can guess his plan, and it would look pretty obvious with "18 Vargheists" on his roster sheet

Fair enough. I'll pop a list up at some point - let me know what you think.

Will do! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with as I am always open to seeing armies in a new light & seeing people's different ideas for running effective lists

Cheers,
Sedgey

Terrain. A unit of 18 monstrous infantry which have to space apart since they're skirmishers is going to have a tough time navigating terrain if you deploy amongst it - flyers or not.

That aside - they're T4 with no armour or save of any type. Even with 4 Str5 attacks and a stomp, they would still suffer ludicrous losses if they were hit by a combat unit. Hell, even crossbow units would be scary.

Problem is 18 means he has 2 ranks and horde.. With usually enough movement to get a flank charge..

So against chaos warriors, he gets a flank, charge, and 4 thunderstomp, and 36 attacks.. Kind of a bit more than the 10 or so attacks the warriors might get back.. Even on the front.. He gets the same, while the warriors only get under 20 attacks.. Not enough to move this kind of unit..

on a flank he prolly wont get so many attacks back due not enough in b2b and depending on the list it's fighting they can position redirection counters to keep turning it long enough once it finally decides to face units mostly due to the sheer lack of shooting vc's have to stop it....


Still I like them as well and would want to run them, but vargheists Crypt Horrors are just so much better

Edit re above line....

18 Vargheists would have 72 S5 attacks wouldn't they?
Why bother with a flank just charge straight forward turn 1 and obliterate whatever was there.

Is it possible to magnetise the arms? That way you can use whatever combination you like and don't have to choose.

Cheers,
Pete

With the size of the unit and their need to overrun whenever they kill a unit I would be very worried about using it. It would be very risky putting them on the flank with ld 7

Do you think people would mind using stone trolls as crypt horrors? Would save a lot of money as I already have a lot of trolls and there isn't much difference between the models.

I wouldn't.

Reanimated Trolls would look awesome.

I thought about this. There are a few differences other than the arms so I didn't take it any further.



I am thinking of using some trolls to add some variety to a big unit.

A lot of assumptions in there... Like the fact you can hit a flank with the WoC player unable to prevent it. A unit on 40mm bases aren't going to get that many attacks against the flank of an expensive unit like Warriors.

I'm not saying it proves my point, but just for fun:

3*10 Warriors, unmarked, with Halberds being charged front on by a horde of 18 Vargheists, in a vacuum, will strike first and win combat. 18 wounds to 15, if you were curious. Adding in Nurgle, Tzeentch or Khorne marks (which is pretty likely on a unit that size) which exagerate the victory even further. So that's 6 dead Vargheists due to combat, and losing combat by 3 (Vamps get +1 for charging, Warriors get +1 for Standard) will kill another Vargheist via Crumble.

The Warriors would also cost significantly less points, for the record.

2 X 3 Vargheists
and
2 X 6 horrors

or

2 X 8 horrors

I would really lean towards more horrors. I have had a little success with a small unit of 3 vargheists as flankers and small unit hunters but they are going to be very pricy and vulnerable in most circumstances. 2x8 horrors is a very scary thing with a mortis engine and some healing behind them.

what's also good about that type of list is for once as a vampire playing your not trying to get across the board by turn 2, turn3 is optimal to see enemy re-directors near your line as mortis engines can pop them before the charge phase, sure it's random, but get 2x mortis and well at turn 3-4 there almost assured to die, if not in charge phase then at least the banshee scream a morits has as well

Again it is also really important to keep in mind how much easier it is to heal crypt horrors. the 5 or 6 wounds back with a lvl4 casting is just a lot better than the 1 for Vargheists