Just had a random idea, and was curious as to how the populace would take it.

Orks counts-as Space Wolves. Mostly using the WFB range with WYSIWYG gear. Boyz for Grey Hunters, Savage Boyz for Blood Claws, Black Orcs for Terminators, Chariots for Thunderwolf Cav ect... The only thing that wouldn't be WYSIWYG is the armour, as modelling power armoured orcs would take skill far beyond my own.

So... Thoughts? Would it be too much of a stretch? Too hard to keep track of what's what even if the guns were correct? The list would be built from scratch specifically to be Wolves, it wouldn't be an army that could also be run as regular Orks or other chapters ect, and though it might end up at the odd tournament it wouldn't be a min-max power list.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, if you want to know what some of the other 'counts-as' options would be i'm happy to list more.

Wouldn't it work like;
Boyz = shoota boyz
Savage orks = slugga boyz
Black orks = nobz
Chariots = bikes

Why cant you run it from the basic ork dex? I dont see why you'd run under wolves outside of better book... To me wolves are way to accurate, too well armoured, too fast (I) too strong (S)...

As long as its obvious then i wouldnt have a problem with it.

If i were you i wouldnt do things liek taking blood claws AND grey hunters, it would be more difficult to keep track of what is what.

I personally wouldnt have a problem if it was well done, to the point where it doesn't jsut look like you are just trying to play the space wolves dex but in msot games against most opponents I's say you're probably pushing sh*t up hill.

Regards,
Crynn

it can be done, at stouthammer there was a guy running the Necron Codex (previous edition) using ork models but he converted the crap out of it to the point where they obviously were not plain old orks

Use the Ork codex... Its what its made for. Or, wait for their next book, theyll likely get hit by the power creep stick.

If models were in power armour/ terminator armour, Id say its ok. But otherwise, its definitely breaking the codex system.

What is this "codex system" you speak of? i havent seen any codex system past rules for units in a given book can only be used with rules for units in the same book.
THAT system works real well to me experience but the idea that the MODELS must be the same ones sold and endorsed by GW as belonging to that book is mearly a perception.

If there were no pictures in any of the codexes, no models released and no public consensus on what a space wolf looks like existed, there would be no reason to think his ork idea would not work. Its only your perception of what each unit IS that matters.
If your smart enough to tell the difference between ultra marines tac squad 1 and ultra marines tac squad 2 then im sure you will be able to get your head around, the smaller orks are grey hunters and the big dark ones are terminators.

i run my grots as dreadnoughts. and use epic truks as truks.



brilliant. but there are?

It's a hard sell...

I have seen a couple of "Deffwing" armies that work - using the Dark Angels codex with Mega-Armour Nobs, and looted Dreadnaughts or Predators. However, this was moslty using the original models (IE, mega-armour converted from Terminators) which made it a bit more straightforward.

There is to much confusion involved, if up to hour of game time is justifying why your orcs are not space orks, but Space Wolves and explaining to your opponent what each model represents then its not a good idea.
Not that there is anything wrong with getting some 3rd party orky weapons and fielding the orcs as Space Orks.
I think though that half the people who said sure are probably tickled by the idea of trolling their opponent with such a BS army.

Demon- I would 'Like' your comment if I could

Paddlepop Lion- There IS a codex system Codex: Orks is made to represent an Ork army, while Codex: Space Wolves is made to represent a Space Wolf army.

Orks and Space Marines are not similar, as Shakey said, Orks have lower BS, I, S, and wear no armour.

I understand what your saying, that you can use different models that represent other models (I for example use daemonettes with gargoyle wings as Dark Elf harpies), but Orks look nothing like Space Wolves.

As I said, if Grovel was to justify using the SW book by having the Orks in power armour/ Terminator armour, or at least heavily armoured Orks (more so than 'Ard Boys mind you...) then I would find it totally reasonable. But as it stands, he seems to want to take WHFB orks, give them bolters and other Space Wolf weapons, and call them Space Wolves.

Essentially, yes I do.

Most people seem to be jumping to the wrong conclusion of the 'why' part though. It's not because I want to run Orks but using a better army book, which has become the consensus. It's not even that I want to use the Space Wolf codex (for power or options). I just want an excuse to use Boar Boys and happen to have quite a few marine weapons and wolf skin bitz around the place.

I'm wasn't entirely sold on the idea anyway so the negative perception (power gaming) is enough to convince me not to go down that path. I'll stick to my not-Night Lords for now.

If boar boyz is the main thing you want to do I'd use the ork codex and run them as ork bikerz.

There seems to be a strong precedent of 'counts as' for running cavalry models as bikes and vice versa. some example include:

Bike rough riders (IG)
Lizard riding eldar as Guardian jetbikes (Eldar)
Lion cavalry as Ravenwing (DA)

And I saw an army on youtube the other day that had boar boyz used as bikes.

Yep, boarboys as bikers is the way to go for sure. You could also use chariots as buggies.

If this is the case, why choose the SW dex?

Why not run them as Orks?

You do not seem to be entirely honest with yourself and the rest of us on the choice of dex...

you can see my opinion on ork with a marine dex in the pretty similar thread here:

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=135548

Thats stupid and not what im saying. The dimensions of a model matter because it changes it in game terms but an ork is about the same size as a marine.


What i was trying to get at is that as long as the wargear is clear on each model so you dont have to spend ANY extra time working out what is what, the only thing left getting in the way of using different models is just that you already have it in your head that a spacewolf doesnt look like an ork.





That isnt a system. The books are stand alone sets of rules and the models are just kits you can buy that accurately fit the rules. The models you use dont matter at all past thier dimensions and playability (wysiwig ect).
Where is the line?
Can i use kit bashed converted space wolves?
if so, can i use ultra marines with the right warger as space wolves?
if so can i use converted orks if the WERE in power armor?
if so why not just orks as long ats its totally obvious what is what?

The only thing that really matters is both players know whats going on. If ANY of these are not ok for reasons other than that then ALL of them must be not ok. If thats the case then is it ok to paint my space wolves in a different scheme?

I'd find it acceptable in a friendly game at home. As a TO I wouldn't let it pass at a tournament I run, people get confused easily unfortunately.

yes its deliberately stupid to make a point. youre saying the concept of it being an ork not a spacemarine is arbitrary and all a matter of perception.

im saying its an ork.

you hippy

you want to make it about size then im assuming youre fine with me using a carboard box thats the right dimension with 'landraider' written on it.



Well he's alreadfy stated he's not doing that. conversions & kit bashing. so whats your point?

I dont have it in my head that a spacewolf doesnt look like an ork. its an ork. the fact that you are calling an ork shows that you can see that its an ork too.



wrong



If you cant see the difference between using an ork as a space marine & any of the dot points above it like a converted army(ie: orks, in power armour, with boltguns) then theres a whole side of the hobby youre not getting. which is fine. but sad. and also contradictory of yourself by the way

ANY time spentworking out what stuff is =/= straight ork models as marines.




I wouldnt let it pass as they arent even marines & arent an alternative model, theyre orks. from codex orks.



hey, look at the end of the day its your figs & your hobby. if you wanted to run them as thunderwolf cav then hey why not. do it. its your hobby & we all do it for different reasons

on one end of the scale you get people like paddlepop who are fine with you using cardboard boxes and playdough infantry as long as the dimensions right & at the other end you get people who love the hobby for the narrative & see the codices for what they are. additional rules that allow you to play the game, with their own style and colour for each race in the game. interestingly enoughyou seem to have gotten a majority response from the latter.

my only advice would be this. when you put an army down ont he table, there can be a few different reactions from your opponent. i prefer the 'i like what youve done there' to 'whatever'

if you want to run boarboy cav as thunderwolves, convert the crap out of the nobs, bult the pigs up huge and base them right. it'll get interest if you do it well.

or just run them as bikes. you can still make a powerful army out of ork bikes.

new codex is almost here..

well you have hit the nail on the head, i play the game for the game and have little to no interest in the narrative, fluff or modeling.
From the perspective of someone who plays for the games sake i wouldnt have any problem playing against cardboard boxes that are roughly the right size and have done it before.

I dont understand but accept the other side of the coin where people want to play against accurate, nicely moddeled and painted figures but that is a two way street. If someone wants get all pompus about thier hobby then who are they to place any restrictions on how somebody else moddles thier army?

From a TOs perspective this is a difficult subject because people can get confused easily, but if its 100% clear and cannot be confused (eg the deathwing idea say ALL terminators with hammer shiled) how can a TO justify turning it down when someone spent soo long converting and painting it all?

You're confused, I've twice pointed out the difference between converting and counts as.

1. These privateer models are counts as guardsmen
2. These converted empire wfb troops are guardsmen with WYSIWYG weapons
3. These marines out of the box are orks.

3. Is different.

Actually playing with the figs and rules isn't pompous, though that is often the catch cry of the person who isn't into the hobby. Demanding that all models be GD standard is pompous.

Be aware that you may be fine playing with tissue boxes and don't see the difference - most other people aren't. I do realise I'm trying to explain a basic concept to someone who refers to aspects of the core rules as 'tricks'

Seriously? It may come as a surprise to you, but it's just a hobby to me - I'm not out to defraud the world with some massive scam, it's toy soldiers ffs.

I don't want to run them as Orks as the Ork codex strikes me as boring, as do the 40k Ork models. I like the WFB Orcs models, and have an army of them at the moment. The surplus models from which would have formed the foundations for this list, if I had gone through with it.

Save the half assed psych analysis for when you actually know a person or their motives.



I can see why people would have a problem with 3, but honestly I can't see an issue with 2 if the weaponry was visible and different troop types were clearly visible.

I'm hoping there weren't people assuming I was going with 1 or 3...

I dont know maybe im not getting the message your sending here but I have also said several times that this only works if it is 100% clear and out of the box orks are not clear enough to be used as wolves.
If he converts them like he said he would to hold all the right wargear and was to say avoid complex choices like taking both blood claws and GHs so that ALL the basic boys are basic grey hunters then it would be 100% clear.

I also do no see any difference in getting privateer press models and using them as guardsmen or using grots with lasguns. Its an army of models with the same base size that are about the same size with WSYWIG weapons. How can it be an issue in game terms as long as its totally clear?

Actually playing with figs and rules is not pompus, demanding that other people adhear to your idea on how the hobby should be done is.

Can i piggy back here and ask for advice on a 'counts as oblits'

My chaos army is going to have minimal warp theme, so nothing too daemonic. For oblits I was going to use the old space crusade 'dreadnought expansion' tarantulas with the guns modified to represent the weapons an oblit can conjure up. Would that be workable?

Also, would you put the gun on the 40mm base and have that at the reference point for the mini (with the gunner hanging off the back) or what?

There's no good reason why I shouldn't accept this. Ignore the haters and play the game as you please.

Not really, I just don't like people telling people the correct way to play with toy soldiers.

Have you seen BoBo's Obliterators?



As for basing Tarantula Oblits, I'd look at Eldar Guardian platroms as precedent - the gun is a marker, all measurements are taken from the base of the gunner.

I'd be inclined to go with the other way around for rules compatibility. The obliterator itself would normally be on the 40mm base, so stick the 'rantula on one of those and use it as the model for LOS and measurement, then have a dude hanging around it as a marker.

If you Orks looked a bit like this







Then totally got for it.

Empire Guard those ork conversions look good what other bits where used on them as that's a great idea for a counts as army.


As for this thread do what you want as long as you model, the conversions so people can tell the difference between units I would so go for it and don't let people tell you what you can and cannot do as it's your hobby as well and let's face it this is just toy soldiers.

No Idea it's not my army.

+1



yup




nup. i dont think anyone is 'demanding' anything of the type. Its here

its not pompous to expect an ork to be an ork. its an ork.

weird that no other gaming company like battlefront or privateer really has this issue




+1
i really dont get 'power gaming or codex wah wha' as an argument against. its not. that argument suggest that if you rocked up with space wolves theyd still have an issue



I dont have an issue with 1 or 2 either. as long as you can tell that lasguns are lasguns. I think i assumed that youd be going straight out of the box with some boltguns.

seriously though why not model power armour? model chunkyesque uber hardboy armour stuff. all you need for that is leftover plastic bits

Not playing someone simply because thier army doesnt fit the theme you think it should IS pompus. If its all perfectly obvious what everything is and it has no effect in game terms, to actually turn someone down on a game because you want to look at space wolf models IS demanding that other people hobby how you hobby.





Wait so this whole time you thought i was defending the idea of playing out of the box fantasy miniatures as space wolves instead of what i was actually talking about which was converted, wysiwig fantasy orks to be holding bolt guns, meltas and combat weapons?

Dear The Internet

People are doing their hobby in a way that is not pleasing to me and I do not care for it.

playing someone who uses models that look like another race then what is being used is confusing and is not pompous to get annoyed at. IF they are converted to have allot of armour and correct weapons then they would look different to normal space orks with boltguns, but fantasy orks with boltguns look like space orks with boltguns which could be taken as shootas and confusing...

your 2nd part is a contradiction, the ork is not wysiwig without power armour or something to pass as power armour, it is part of the models rules, without it it isn't wysiwig, this is the main issue with this idea. If converted to heavy orks like what empireguard showed (or similar in this case power armoured) then no-one can complain, but orks with boltguns will piss people off. their is a line, it shouldn't be crossed.

I think black orcs would work OK as grey hunters. Light armoured fantasy ork with 3+ save would be jarring.

Only talking about tournament games obiously. I was once playing a friendly game of 40k where an onlooker couldn't figure out what game we were playing (as we had models on the table from 40k, lotr, warmachine, reaper and even the doom boardgame..)

Lol

I have played against a "Russ" that was an upside down ice-cream container.

Yes in a friendly I'm easy. However planing to have wfb orcs be space wolfs I would expect armour and weapons.

Ive seen alot of debate one way or another and it goes a bit like this;

"Can I use Orks as Space Wolves?"
"No - they are orks, use them as orks"
"But its my hobby, and I want orks as Space Wolves. You Cant tell me what to do"

And I get it - nobody can tell you how to enjoy your hobby.
No one can tell you that you can not use those orks, or eldar, or hobbits or tissue boxes as Space Wolves...
...Except a Tournament Organiser if you choose to use it in a game.

Think about that.
I would not enjoy playing against THAT counts as army, because 40K has orks, so why not use them as orks?
- this is my opinion, and if I could, I would refuse to play against the army (pending on your so-called conversions, if any)

Thats cool, that is your opinion, and we are all entitled to it.

I say, If you want to use the Space Wolf codex, but do not want to use Space Wolf models - find something else to better represent the appropriate choices. Hell WFB Dwarfs might be fine.
If you want to use your WFB orcs, find something more appropriate to use them as, because Space Wolves are not appropriate I believe.

Like everyone has already said, it is your hobby. Go ahead and make a Space Wolf army out of Orc Models. Nobody can stop you.
What they can do is refuse to play you, not enjoy the game, hit your painting/ hobby points or complain that the army didnt adequately represent the choices from the Codex.
With great conversions, this may not be an issue, but simply giving a savage orc a bolt pistol and calling him a Blood Claw will NOT cut it!

Haha. Half-assed psych?

You wish to use a top Dex with 'cool' models...

Uh huh.

I dont need to 'know' you prsonally to know you are talking complete garbage

If all I wanted was the dex, why would i bother converting models? I've made it clear i play marines already, and that I own wolf models as is... Like i said, half assed assumption.

As a lot of others have said, it would depend on the conversions you do, and what context you wish to use them.

If you wish to use them with your friends, as long as they are happy, knock yourself out.

In a tournament, there is normally a higher standard.
The main reason is to make the game as simple as possible for your opponent and minimize any misunderstandings.

If you are using orcs (or mainly using orcs with human weapons), then it would be very easy for your opponent to misunderstand or mistake what a particular model is, which gives you an unfair advantage. Can you imagine having to remember that this style of boy is a scout, whilst another is a long fang on your 6th game for a weekend, when you are tired, and have had to remember changes for 5 other armies?

Conversions are cool, but the best result would be from using minimal orc bits to make the squads as clear as possible.

One common argument against this idea is the torney issue. If its painted, I can tell the differnt guns apart then I'd much rather play against this that a 'one size fits all' marine army or the sea of grey plastic thats allowed
If a TO stoped a fully painted/converted counts as army like this Ork army from playing but allowed a non painted army to continue id most likley walk

If you're going to create a post asking for people's thoughts on this idea, that's great - but take on board what they're saying. If you just wanted people to tell you how cool an idea it was - probably should have specified that at the start.

Using Boar Boyz as Ork Warbikers = Cool
Using Boar Boyz as Thunderwolf Cav = Confusion

Different example - could you understand how it might be confusing if I decided to use the Tyranid Codex for a Marine army? But Tervigons are kinda like Rhinos with units inside...aren't they? Warriors would make the perfect Terminator unit...right?

You asked the question, you got the answer. If you don't care what people think, why ask in the first place?

Well if you thought that you didnt read the OP



and for some reason went down that avenue yourself



the only thing thats not wysiwyg is oh, the model

Do you realise that you're essentially advocating a purchase only from GW position by supporting WYSIWYG, as you can't get WYSIWYG armies without buying from them.

I find the double standards in this forum frustrating, half of you state that armies must be WYSIWYG yet gladly accept a converted ork army as a deathwing force. Or a zombie force posing as tyranids, or a star wars force as imperial guard.

The forums are not just one person you know. Various people on the forum have differing opinions...

Yep I sure do, but I was addressing those who hold double standards over the issue of WYSIWYG.

Wasn't that clear enough in my post?

I think converting fantasy orcs to 40k space wolves is a stupid idea and I dont think you should do it.

OK.. well, I can assure you Demon is not one of the people holding a double standard, being one of the most strict WYSIWYG adherants I know (and rather disliking things like having marines painted the wrong colour for example).

Personally though I think it's easily possible to see one thing as OK and another as not.. By accepting one substitution I do not have to accept every substitution. It's all shades of grey.

Question; "Pushing the boundaries of 'counts as', Space Wolves"
Answer; No it's over the boundary