Hey guys,

http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/deep...hobby.html#more

Saw this earlier today and thought it was worth sharing around as much as possible. It raises some very interesting points, and after reading it I'm starting to reconsider some of my views of GW.

Let's try and keep this reasonable, no mass degradation of GW, just stay on topic.

Thanks

Night Reaper

There's other manufacturers you know.

Ian, dont troll.

Calling all Wombats...

Really interesting article with a lot of valid points. Wells is still waaaaaay out of touch though.

Seriously mang. GW is just a company that sells some plastic dudes. Essays aren't necessary.

Probably not. But the article also addressed the community and what they can do to make the game more fun, which was quite interesting.

The original author raised some interesting points and Jes Goodwin has my pity that he can't talk to us without copping a heap of vitriole about the work he does.

But, GW does need to realise that another of his points is also true. If GW shut it's doors tomorrow, The hobby would survive. The community of players would barely notice the fact that there would be no more new minatures and it would simply find other ways to get the minis it wanted, even just specific parts. How many of us have a large bits box? How many of us can use E-bay?

I mean that GW needs us. We only need GW if we play one of it's games.

GW provides a good product. Its just the pricing policy that needs a little tweaking.

END OF RANT

Just a question out of interest. Who was introduced to the game by a friend and who was brought into the game by advertising.

I was introduced by a friend

FRIEND : 1
ADVERTISING : 0

Friend

I was introduced to wargaming by my granddad (who played napoleonics).
I discovered other games indirectly through a friend who told me about a games convention - where I discovered Battletech (this was one of the old Tin soldier ones, in the old Haymarket TAFE campus.). Later I found Tin Soldier.

Later, I discovered 40k by looking at the rulebook in a store (there were NO GW stores in this country at that point, and Sydney still had a Mind Games.).

I found other people who played and they became my friends. I didn't introduce friends to it (gaming), they were already gamers when we were introduced.

The one thing that irks me about contemporary gamers is the almost evangelical hate from the "converts" to other games from GW (they seem to wear gaming blinders). You don't have to be exclusive to one plastic-producing idol. One can have a gaming pantheon and be quite happy.

Friend

+1 Chromedog I can remember when mind games was still going, I was introduced to the GW hobby by a friend but we played other games as well, quiet a few role play games which I still play occasionally.

Yeah some gamers don't get the big picture there are other companies that produce alternate miniatures for 40K, or totally different gaming systems if you want e.g. our gaming group also play dystopian wars, malifaux, and sedition wars looks good.

Even the old GW specialist games, like blood bowl, necromunda and mordheim you can source alternate models from other gaming systems which provide good alternatives to GW models.

Mordheim's a great example of the community not needing GW - GW screwed over our wonderful community yet expansions and new warbands balanced to those expansions and those settings as well as the game as a whole have been released within the external to GW (granted many players were from the old Mordheim forums before the royal ###### up with SG Forums being set up which lost so many players outright) community. There's other systems in the same sort of genre and style as Mordheim and it being a skirmish game pretty much any company that produces fantasy miniatures can be used as the models. It's the being mature enough to evolve past the GW store to an Independent store which isn't GW Biased and then going from there beyond that can be a real sticking point for some people who buy into the fallacy that GW sells the only good models on the market.

+1 and this is a problem for the gaming community and a massive win for GW when some gamers have no perception on what's good value in terms of getting bang for your buck dollar wise, yes 10+ years ago yes they where the dominant player in the market but this has not been true for a number of years now, and yet they still act like they produce the only good models in the market place.

I came to the hobby from a different angle. I found Dawn of War. That was a revelation after playing Age of Empires forever. From there, I found out my bro in law was a very talented modeller and painter, and he made me a Tau Commander. After a while, he looked lonely all on his own, so I started building an army from there. About a year later, I have about 2500-3000 points of painted Tau, and a DE on the way.

As for the article, I also find it sad that the creators of these minis can't relate to us as the gamers. Sure, I don't like paying more than I have to, but on a model per model basis, the prices aren't THAT bad. Ok, finecast excepted there. But, GW is a company, companies make money, else there is no company. End of story. How they choose to do that can be debated till the squats come home, but in the end, GW know we want their product and they make a good one, so they set their prices accordingly in their minds.

Anyway, it was an interesting read, with some valid points. thanks for sharing.

I now understand where the 'chrome' in your username comes from...
Unfortunately, my hair didnt go grey, it just packed its bags and left

When it comes to things like rumours, tutorials and tactica, the Internet is my go-to guy. GW's contribution in these areas is negligible. Who needs White Dwarf when you have any of the great wargaming sites or blogs, let alone all of them?

When it comes to a free and open discussion of the game and the products, I know I can go to my local independent retailer for good advice and a chat. I don't even like to think about what happens when I step into a GW shop. Nice range of products in stock, terrible people to deal with.

TOURNAMENTS, TOURNAMENTS, TOURNAMENTS. The fact that there are multiple tournaments a year in a place like SA alone that run and prosper entirely without GW involvement is the single most important argument that we run this hobby.

GW contributes the rules, the models and the fluff. We are the hobby.

Same argument can be made against any company though.

If you mean "against any company" I think the difference is that most other wargaming companies don't have a local physical infrastructure of shops of staff. Most of them don't even have a corporate office in Australia or NZ.

Nice article, honestly I agree with it, in particular a site he mentioned literally has thousands of battle reports, how to play step by steps for many of it systems alongside painting and modeling tutorials accusing such places as freeloading is a slap to the face.

I co run a small gaming group of around fifteen members "howd you start?" is a pretty standard question. The answer is usually a friend/family member played..... Not I was walking past a GW and a overly enthusiastic sales person hurled information at me until I bought something so I could leave.


When profits falter and the company begins to sink their attitude may change for the better or for the worse, but people are still playing and paying so I can't see that happening anytime soon

Ow and a friend

thingy didnt say anything new.

I think he's somewhat misinterpreting the quote from GW re support from retailers. What GW is saying is that the big two UK mail order retailers don't support the hobby IN AUSTRALIA.

What would happen if GW were to close all its retail stores? Would that be good for the hobby? With a domestic presence, we get the benefits of a local supply chain and availability (I'm assuming) of the entire catalog, not just the stuff that individual retailers decide is worth stocking.

What would happen if GW were to close all its retail stores? Would that be good for the hobby? With a domestic presence, we get the benefits of a local supply chain and availability (I'm assuming) of the entire catalog, not just the stuff that individual retailers decide is worth stocking.
[/quote]


I'm not sure it would really hurt aus all that much if they did. If they were to close all retail out lets and just keep open the mailing operations I doubt two many people will feel it.

Games workshop stores don't carry the full range, there is quite a few items that you have to get via the online store. The actuall brick and mortar GW's can order them for you I guess but so could any independent stocker.

For example squigs and squig herds and even a some new releases are only available by mail order I.e the new finecast legion of the damned models.

I agree, I do occasionally vist one of my local GW's to get rules clarification and just to have a face to face chat about the hobby. (I mean I like you guys and all but....)
I don't like how the stock on the shelf seems to be getting less and less of the smaller models and they just have battle forces and big box items. Yes I know there is limited space, and they are a business needing to make money, but they would probably get more from several smaller box impulse buys than one battle force.
Do GW do anything for the gaming community outside their stores apart from Games Day and Golden Demon?

i must be missing something, it sounds like you are saying GW provides everything needed to play, you are someones past time.

its kind of a nothing statement

holden provides me with car body, airconditioning, chair covers, i am driving.



This is a real headscratcher, youre standing point changes like 3 times in one paragraph
gamesworkshop screwed you over
but you didnt need them
and there are other games anyway

which is basically wrong anyway

gw wrote some rules, it didnt make money so they stopped because they are some sort of business & not a charity group & yet still provided years & years of afetr production support with downloadable rules errata/faqs & provision of forums for a game they didnt sell anymore.

& people ran with it because its a self conatined game that doesnt need any further embellishments

the whole specialist games support thing for as long as it lasted was actually one of those things that was a plus on the community side & youre using its belated closing as some sort of negative activity rather than the norm.

Yes, GW has its head up its ass. Writing essays abotu how you have the power means nothing if you then go & buy stuff from them

All that stuff about them not providing tourney support and how other gamers recruit gamers and how you have all the power, GW doesnt care about. prices go up. profits go up. 'im mark wells therefore your argument is invalid'

I agree with many of the sentiments in that post.

I have been purchasing GW product since the company began ( yes I am that old ). I find that the GW line is now more prescriptive than ever before. That is, GW seems to dictate more now about what is canon and permitted than ever before (although there was one point in the 90s that I seem to remember was pretty bad when you had to use current edition models, not earlier figures).

I don't want to be told, as I was by a GW staffer the other day, that:

1. I must use GW paints (face it, you can't get a colour match if you follow mixing instructions because sometimes the Studio just doesn't use GW paints!);
2. If I want to use wolf rats in my Skaven army I must buy Forgeworld, not convert chaos hounds;
3. That I must now paint the edges of my bases black ( I was doing that over 20 years ago and was told it was wrong then - that snot green edges were required);
4. That I must use the current version of the rules;
5. That I must use the current version of the rules without house rules as they are not needed;
6. That Finecast is the best stuff ever;
7. That to fix the holes in Finecast that I must use the liquid greenstuff. There shouldn't be any holes at the prices some of these figures are;
8. That there are no alternatives to GW tools, brushes, paints, basing materials etc when there clearly are;
9. Don't rewrite the fluff and say that what went before is no longer canon.

Sure, make suggestions, but don't tell me how I am required to enjoy my hobby.

Don't look at me blankly when I say I also play historical games.

Know a bit about the history of GW, not just what happened a year ago. Know what a Genestealer Cult army is

Having said that, the quality of the figures, at least in plastic, are better than they have ever been. I purchased a dwarf copter in Finecast the other day and it was, without doubt, the best resin model I have ever seen.

GW have done some great things for the hobby, but I get the feeling that shareholders are now more important than the hobbyists. White Dwarf isn't anywhere near as good as it was in the 90s, let alone earlier when there were other games systems discussed in the 80s.

The hobby is large enough for there to be room for everyone's views about the hobby. That's what keeps the hobby alive. Pretty bland if everyone followed the same path. And frankly, I think GW prices are now at a level that discourage people from buying the product.

At least that's my humble opinion

gwz

I think the bile is a result of other treatment at the hands of GW. When you are annoyed by one thing you lash out at everything about it.

a) poorly written tl;dr
b) nothing new

I kicked off a gaming club which now has a life of it's own and almost every time i've tried to bring that topic of conversation up in a GW store they just shut it down, they don't seem to want to talk about the hobby, just to sell stuff. And i get it, they're a company and that's what companies do. I'll still buy their stock, just not at their stores in the AU cause so far most of the staff are vastly unhelpful when it comes to non current rule questions or conversations.

You do realize that they aren't supposed to talk about past editions don't you?

It's a policy thing not the staff.

R

They don't even seem to want to discuss the hobby unless that discussion is what you're going to buy from their store.

I'd be more inclined to buy from them if they acted less like salesmen and more like genuinely interested hobbyists.

tl;dr, does it address the fact that we as a community have willingly agreed to neuter ourselves and our enjoyment through the horribly misdesigned concept called 'composition'?

You do realize they ARE salesmen don't you?

They are trying do their job..

There's many a FLGS that went out of business because the staff spent the day day talking about stuff rather than selling stuff..

R

They have a job to sell things yes. But to constantly push a product is often not the best sales tactic. At least not with your average adult nerd. It might work on the young'uns, or those whose view of the world is not as cynical and jaded as mine.

I'm also somewhat annoyed by the reduced amount of stock in stores, specifically the old school blister packs which of course are generally being phased out into finecast. But they don't even always have the finecast stock readily available. And one day i might walk into a store ready to purchase a goblin hero or dwarf lord on shieldbearers, and they'll say sure, just hop onto this terminal here and you can order into the store.

Soon as i hear that, i think, well ######, i can also just hop onto my own computer and order directly to my house and it will cost less.

If the stores are complaining about loss of sales due to independent retailers, and i know of one store that folded primarily due to this, then maybe they should reconsider the way they run the stores and advise the staff on their policies?

I go to a GW store occasionally, yes they are salesmen but there not even competent salesmen as any decent salesmen will tell you trying to brow beat your customer into buying something does not lead to good sales results and increases customer dissatisfaction, there is an art in knowing when you have the customer on the hook and asking for the sale which very few sales people do well.

Half the fight is getting the product in your customers hands, if you can do this see what happens when you try to take the product away from them, as the customer perceives they already own the product.

It's not a reduced amount of stock. It's a reduced percentage of the range, because the range has increased significantly. There's limited space in the stores.

Personally I find it considerably easier to order things in to GW. I work full time, so when packages are delivered to my house i need to go and pick them up from the post office. GW is a short walk from work, the post office is near home, a half hour out of town.

It seems like some of the stores could make much better use of the shelf space though.

Most packages that get delivered to us are left at the door unless specifically requested to be signed for, but that's cause we've spoken to the local mail couriers and the like and let them know we're happy with that.

I do understand the convenience for some to order stock at the store.

It is turning into a fairly bad situation at the nearest GW store here 2.

now ive been going there on again off again for over 5 years as theve moved from there original store and the worst part seems to be that despite being a regular, the staff change all the time.

now ive got a mass of 40k and I like the game but im not whole hearted GW supporter either, as Ive got warmahordes and Fow and battletech, but the thing that gets under my skin is when you go into the store to make a purchase ( which aint little each time ), and the guys keep trying to flog the latest stuff off and even though I know there doing there job some of the guys dont even know bout the Rogue Trader era or the old school models, same as white dwarfs 2.

I think that if GW keeps at its current course about profit for shareholders instead Us the gamers, theyl lose out in long run as more peopl turn to other options. Maybe if that happens they might think bout things and heaven forbid change there ways.

Anyhow thats my rant done,

Me I was Introduced by a original marine box set at a store that accidently got it with an order for someone and didnt know what to do with it.

RANT INCOMING!!!!!!

Yeah the situation at my local GW is as many of you describe it, going downhill. There have been good managers in the past, but the past two have been really annoying, always shamelessly trying to sell us the newest models. Just the other day I was talking to the manager (reluctantly I must admit) about my Night Lords, when he said: "Oh, why don't you add a stormtalon to your force, just to give it a bit of character, and to look good on displays." That was the icing on the cake for me. It's reached the point where most of the regulars at the Thursday night gaming, have left the store, and formed their own club, just to avoid having to interact with the manager.

Sure, some GW staff are just a bit too enthusiastic about sales (that's put politely ), but there are plenty of others who are good, and who don't ram sales down your throat. There's one staff member who gives great advice on armies, painting, and what to buy next, without the 'Buy this or get out of my store attitude'. As opposed to the manager who last saturday was trying to sell some poor, little 12 yr old, the assault on black reach set, and even openly admitted that the normal rulebooks had been removed for something 'special' in the near future (not new news, just recounting his words). As the soon as the manager was distracted, I stepped in, told the kid to save his money for next month, and not buy anything until then, as well as advising him to get out of the store as soon as possible. To his credit, the kid told the manager he didn't want to buy anything until next month, and walked out of the store. Hahahahaha, the look I got from the manager was priceless, and if looks could kill, I'd be dead .

Rant done

But seriously, GW is alright. Yeah sure their products are overpriced, and they don't support the fanbase as well as they could, but they're a commercial company, what else do you expect? It's a mutual relationship. They can't exist without us, and we would struggle to exist without them. Cause honestly, how much easier is it to have GW writing the rules, making the models, and selling the products, rather than us?

Look, not everyone agrees on this topic, and you're all entitled to your opinion, but seriously afford GW some respect. WH40k wouldn't exist without them, and when one of the founding fathers (Jes Goodwin) can't even communicate with the community, because there is so much vittirol against GW, you know that we're over-reacting way too much and that there is a serious problem.

Anyway that's just some food for thought.

We are the lifeblood of the hobby, but GW is the heart (Oh god, that comment's going to cop some flak)

Night Reaper

You do realise that there are other miniature companies out there. That also write rules and stuff like that. Break free of the marketing and give your collection of toys the opportunity to play as some generic powered armoured dudes trying to capture a compound from some generic battledress dudes. (or generic aliens from generic alien bugs, etc)

40K isn't the best set of rules for playing wargames. It just happens to be popular.

And as for "Jes Goodwin can't even communicate with the community, because there is so much vittirol against GW", all I can say is "it's the internet". There is no editorial control. You always have to sift through the ######e to find the interesting things, it is just the way the internet is. His issue certainly isn't restricted to ranting aimed at GW. Any body with any sort of semi formed idea can put it on the internet and claim the high ground.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what WERE GW prices like? I only started about a year ago, and considering I have done other models before (cars, planes etc) I didn't think the prices were that out of line with some of these hobbies. I also play infinity, and a single model can be from $12-20 with a discount. My boxes of 12 fire warriors are about 40 from the store, cheaper on line, so about $3.50 - $4 per model, which isn't too bad.

Can someone enlighten me? And please keep it civil.

On a side note, trolling occurs on every forum. I saw an interesting quote about:

The internet troll is the evolutionary equivalent of a monkey, happy and safe in their tree slinging **** knowing they are safe from reprisal... sad but true...

Honestly I'd feel sorry for someone my age working in a GW store (unless they are managing). Retail is a ###### job, it has limited advancement opportunity and poor wages. It's the sort of dead end job you don't want to be stuck in, so a high turnover is actually a good thing. Or at least, an expected and healthy thing...

I don't expect the kid behind the counter at KFC to be able to tell me the company history, or get offended when I ask for New Orleans style chicken and he stares at me blankly.

No problems then

When I started playing a battle force cost around $300. It consisted of METAL minis and usually had over 2000pts of stuff in it.

A dreadnought cost about $50, was made of metal and a unit of terminators was $40 for 10.
$30 got you a rhino

I can also remember the general reluctance for the plastic models when they came out. Like the failcast, they generally weren't very good so I am hoping that the new resin stuff will improve over time, though like plastics, they upped the prices.

At least now you don't have to buy the unit then buy the particular upgrade for it (like a lascannoner for a unit of marines when the original box came with a heavy bolter)

Now I'll stop waving my walking stick around and I'll Go *SNORES*

When I started (very early 90s), you could get a 'team' of Bloodbowl figures (metals) in a hard plastic box of 20 miniatures for $24.

You're quite right mate. GW plastic kits are (and pretty much always have been) in line with scale model equivalents.


Me too. But that was 2nd ed when a space marine army of 2000 points had around 27 models in it. And those $60 (not 50) metal dreadnoughts were also smaller and had no options. The rhinos were indeed $30, but they were small and damned fragile.

the other important note was when they went from boxes of 20 imperial guardsmen for $50, to now, when boxes of 10 of the exact same imperial guardsmen (it's literally just half the number of sprues you used to get in a smaller box) now go for $48

and that isnt a "things were cheaper 18 years ago when the quality wasnt as good" story, but a "this has happened within the current edition, so under 4 years"

also, if you've only been around for a year, you may not be aware of the fact that australian prices are in most cases more than twice the price that the same models cost overseas, and that GW's response to locals complaining that overseas business was outcompeting the local stores, was to forbid the overseas shops from selling to us anymore.

you may also have missed the part where they changed materials to a cheaper (but lesser quality cast) method and charged us an extra 25% or so for the privledge. (not including the new tools they want to sell us to repair the miscasts)

if you cannot tell the qualitative differences between a multipart infinity figure in metal, and a plastic line infantryman bought in a pack, then perhaps you should consider comparing an infinity figure at $12 to a finecast figure of similar bulk and less detail at $25

it's also important to note that these changes are not unique, and show no signs of slowing down. the joke about the annual price rise is not a joke, it happens every year, has done for some time, and will continue to do so for as long as people continue to suck it up and shell out the cash. their justification was highlighted neatly in a shareholders document from (iirc) 2 years back, which ammounted to "because we can"


GW have good points (or atleast, they have two, perhaps three) but their pricing strategy is quite definitely not one of them

They make the raw materials of the hobby (which are actually not entirely mandatory) but we build the hobby using them. I'm much more interested in what community-based groups are doing when it comes to organised hobby activities than anything GW has come up with recently, because the quality of the community activities is much higher.

Also to use your analogy, Holden don't claim that they are doing the driving.

This is an interested point which I think is related to the main issue.

Fact is most of us don't "hate" Games Workshop. We certainly don't hate their games, or we wouldn't be playing them.

But we can be displeased with them at times, and some people get vitriolic. I don't think retreating into your shell is the correct response for a public figure to criticism, especially not in the Internet age. GW seem to have a long-standing cultural obsession with controlling the message, to the point where can't abide any communication medium where they are not in absolute control and push information down onto us as they see fit. A good example of this was in the podcast with Rick Priestly where he was asked why GW doesn't have any media presence and replied with something like "we did do an interview for a newspaper once and it wasn't as good as we wanted it to be". In the 6th Ed rumours thread I mentioned I found their "communication with the studio has fallen suspiciously silent" blurb to hilariously ironic.

I think they need to give up on this idea and let themselves be part of the free flow of information and discussion. In this day and age your customers expect you to be available, responsive and open about your company, your products and your future. It's a good thing and I believe the benefits for GW far outweigh the risk that they might one day read something bad someone said about their mothers. Everybody cops a bit of flak online sometimes, regardless of how popular they are. HTFU a bit and build some trust and a lot of people will actually have a medium to express their love for the company and the products. You can't control the world and if you try you will fail.

By withdrawing from public discourse I believe GW have effectively withdrawn from the hobby. They're tried to create a substitute world through White Dwarf and the like but it's a Potemkin community that actually alienates and ignores the people who really care about this hobby.

Woah that was a bit of a rant.

"Potemkin community"

Great reference. Never seen it used in that way. Good call.