Lords
Archmage
Lvl 4
Folariath's Robe
Dispel Scroll 320pts

Heroes
Battle Standard
Lance
Dragon Armour
Barded Steed
Enchanted Shield
Radient Gem of Hoeth 186pts

So am either thinking both with Death or Light. The other option however is to take Shadow or Life on the Arch and Fire on the BSB.

Am also a little concerned with the lack of a ward on the BSB. Does the mage ability counter act this? In this situation he will most definitely only be in combat if times a desperate or a 1+ save is enough to keep him safe. His BSB ability is much more valuable than the little he adds to combat. Thoughts are appreciated.

Core
30 Archers
Std, Mus
Banner of Flame 355pts

10 Archers
std, Mus 125pts

10 Archers
std, Mus 125pts

Special
30 White Lions
Full Comm
Banner of Sorcery
Amulet of Light 545pts

21 Swordmasters
Full Comm
Ruby Ring of Ruin 370pts

7 Dragon Princes
Muso 220pts

Rare
3 Eagles 150pts 2,396 total

A few thoughts, firstly the BSB setup is illegal. Sadly we pay 10 pts for the enchanted shield instead of 5. As to the question of mage or tank for the BSB, tank everytime. maybe its just me but I find even 1+ saves on elves aren't enough, as you are forced to roll saves alot more often than those units with toughness 4.

Its also worth thinking about where the BSB is likely to be, if hes mounted and running with the Princes then pretty quicly he's going to be leaving much of the rest of the army behind. I've come to accept that HE can't get as much use out of the BSB as some other armies out there. bunching all our units up often just leaves us super vulnerable to templates war machines and super spells.

So I would always chose tank over an half mage on your BSB. Helm of Fortune and Guardian Phoenix would make him about as survivable as you can get.

In that vein I would consider chopping the swormasters way down or splitting them up into multiple small 7 man units and naked. gives your opponent more things to target and deal with and a few extra drops into the bargain.

Likewise the big archer unit, assuming it was able to plug a gap in the line it wouldn't be steadfast for very long against any half decent unit. Once again much better splitting into 2 or 3 smaller units. Keep 1 with standard and flaming banner and keep the other with just a muso.

Also think about some chariots, can help to give some units with a great threat range and mobility, as single models with free pivots they can often respond alot better to situations than blocks of infantry and can keep up relatively with the Princes.

I would also add in a second mage, level 2 and either take the crystal on him or swap arcane items with your Archmage.

Oh finally since the BSB seems to be sticking with the Princes, I think its worth taking at least a standard and musician, swift reforms can be invaluable and I'm now really sold on the Banner of Ellyrian. I've been losing to many princes to dangerous terrain tests lately, usually thats how they seem to die for me lately rather than actually getting killed by the enemy.

I know you can't fit everything in but another eagle would never go astray either.

Al

Thanks for the feedback!

I've been running pretty much this list at the last few tourneys with really good success, the only changes have been;
1. The lore of magic on the Archmage started with Light, went to Shadow, now thinking Death. Not because any particular lore was a flop, but simply because I like the way different spells synergise with the list.
2. The BSB has always had Helm of Fortune and Guardian Phoenix

This combo always works so well, he is just super hard to kill! I totally understand your point of T3. You do need to roll a lot more saves so I guess the re-roll is very important. I just thought that due to HE armies being so point tight the RGoH really allows you to dual role one of the most important models in the army. I think I'll need to play test, as normally I am very cautious with my BSB. He and the DPs normally sit in reserve supplying re-rolls and then they hit later in the combat to turn it from a grind to a decisive win. He normally carries a GW as 2+ re-roll 5+ ward is pretty solid as opposed to a 1+ re-roll 5+ at strength 4. Also he only ever sits in the DPs if the other army has template weapons. If there are none of those then then he either sits in the SMs or WLs, sure he can't make way but he is always at the centre of the hardest hitting part of my army, and in those units I'm not too fussed about whether he gets to fight. This frees up the DPs to be more attacking and go after things like enemy archer units etc.

I see your point also with the Archer Horde, I'm curious, have you ever tried one? I find they work amazingly well. They cause a lot of damage with their bows but can take quite easily units that normally go after smaller archer units, ie. single chariots etc. I have had games however where they have supplied me with a crucial charge and swung things my way, but this is rare, normally they just do their archer thing. I will however definitely play test splitting them into 2 units of 15. I'm also toying with the idea of running them as 30 Seaguard instead.What this would allow them to do is perform exactly the same role (with less range) but also re-form for greater rank bonus but the same amount of attacks. Of course the difference being against armies where bow fire is useless (lots of high save etc) they could just run as straight spears and support my combat units.

I'm not sure about the MSU SMs though. How do you make it work for you? I imagine that they wouldn't break much in the first round and would be too reduced for subsequent rounds.

I'm with you on the eagles. I have often considered dropping 2 DPs to fit in an extra eagle into this particular list. 3 is good, 4 is better.

Thanks again for your feedback, much to think on!

If I had the models to field your army I would.
Radiant Gem of Hoeth is un. Having a wizard with a 2+ Save is cool.
Have you considered Beasts with him? Wildform is an amazing spell. And casting it on cavaklry is even better.
Fireball is sort of annoying as you can't cast it once you get in combat. While Wildform is good in combat and when you are just waiting around too.

3 Eagles seems a lot. Do you find you need 3 every game (or ever)?

I've reduced the number I run these days, I feel they pull too many points out from the list. I had 2 at EiF and felt I still had 1 too many.

nope - 3 is awesome.. 2 minimum.
Mouse

Then again, you also had 2 dudes riding eagles too. So really you had 4.

I'm doing pretty well with the number I am using. I was just asking. Might be worth counting the games in which they are actually useful and those in which they would be better off being something else.

Completely different roles.

The riders were used as hammers. The eagles are bait/redirectors which I only needed one of (for your grave guard's charge in turn 4)

True, but the riders could still harass small archers / war machines etc.

I use no eagles.
But then I usually lose so put more eagles in!
I think eagles do well against certain armies that are heavily reliant on a single unit or war machines like cannons.
I think they struggle against armies that are very MSU
For instance at my rumble I faced 2 high elf armies with lots of eagles but I was easily able to just shoot them down or wipe them out without them really doing anything.
When playing with my Orcs and Goblins at EiF I relied a lot more on just 3 big units and Nick was more easily able to mislead them with the eagles. Well until my mangler went 17" straight through two of them

Nick is running 50 archers, Ruby ring of ruin and two other spell casters. Chaff isn't going to be an issue. Anyway, let's agree to disagree. In fact I'll slap you with my glove and bite my thumb for the next tournament we go to.

It's funny to hear you say that Aaron, coz I've never had a game where Eagles haven't been useful. 3 is good I think 4 is better. We do run different lists but never once have I thought I'd rather have 50 points more DPs or WLs or whatever

Fair enough. I don't think I'd ever run none, just I don't know if the prevailing wisdom (i.e. 3 or 4 is a necessity) is necessarily correct. However, you run fairly large units, espcially for elves. Maybe you need them a bit more so you get your combats exactly as you need them. I was just curious.

I think this has a lot to do with it. I run blocks of infantry and elves need to get their match ups right, whereas you have been running fast stuff that has a punch so you are better able to pick your match ups without eagle shenanigans. If only Silver Helms were core so that we didn't need to get everything right for a game to go our way!

All cav HE would be AWESOME!!

But yeah - even without super blocks, I don't like leaving home without 2 eagles.. It just allows for soo much flexibility, creates a little bit of forgiveness in an otherwise really unforgiving army..

Mouse

In my humble opinion, just changing Silver Helms back to core would pretty much fix the book balance issues.

+1 oh god yes

Having Elven Nobles as a core choice seems a bit weird to me.
I think they should change the fluff around a bit so you have Elven Knights- Silver helm stats but Core.
The High Elf Nobles (SIlver Helms)- Give them Dragon Prince stats.
Put Dragon Princes back on Dragons- maybe mini dragons and make them monstrous cavalry and more like 60 points each.

Next book man, guaranteed. Gotta have our monsterous cavalry...

demi drakes?

And giant dragon howder/cannon?

Yup.. This is all expected.. I'm a touch excited all told!!
Monstrous eleven cav and silver helm core, and units of lions... And...

Drake Riders would be hugely cool, but they would have to be pushing 80 pts i would imagine for a Dragon Prince on some sort of monstrous cavalary that would presumably fly and hopefully a small breath weapon. The only downside I can see is the models, GW have a hard enough time getting the large ones right, I can't help but think small ones would look very fugly indeed.

I expect either that or Dragons as a Rare choice or possibly both. Say hello to an army of archers and Dragons of all shapes and sizes.

You might even be able to beat the current 3 Dragon HE list, with 4 Dragons plus Drakes.


Al