Like others I've caught the 40k bug and looking through the model list the Dark Eldar stuff are my favourites, with Necrons a close second. Just have a couple of questions:

1) Are Dark Eldar ok as an army for a new player, or will they be frustrating and too unforgiving?

2) Do Dark Eldar have some varied list options now for competitive play?

3) What Dark Eldar stuff looks like being a must have, and what stuff should I avoid?

4) Would Necrons be a better option being more competitive with more useable options?

Any advice would be great. I tried looking on a few other forums but they seemed to be pretty negagtive about Dark Eldar so just would like some more objective views. Thanks!

Necrons would be a better option for a new player. Dark Eldar are far from uncompetitive, but Necrons are more straightforward, and also easier to paint.

I can't comment on what a 6th ed Dark Eldar list should look like, sorry.

They're both fairly recent releases that should operate well in 6th. I always say go with the models you like since you have to paint a bunch of them.

Necrons, I think they have some awesome rules and some very cool units. With the changes in 6th DE didn't really gain anything, a few units became more versatile but overall they became weaker against most armies.

You have possibly 2-3 ways that you can build a competitive army with DE and all of them require that you take a certain amount of a specific unit (lances or blasters). Necrons don't have that so they will give you a lot more options down the track to tackle new armies.

DE are also plain nasty to paint especially if it is your first army.

Necrons will be better. DE are quite restricted in 6th.

DE require more finesse than Necrons...

You're much better with the killy deathbots (new fluff doesn't exist to my mind) than sado-masochistic druggies

...having said that, get the models you like best. If you're playing for fun, you'll have fun.

Necrons are probably more forgiving. Their codex is one of, if not THE hardest codex at the moment. It also seems quite varied. The flip side, is that because they are so good, you may actually get bored of them?

Dark eldar don't need to be hard to paint. They look pretty awesome with the base, drybrush, wash approach to painting, esp if your base colour is NOT black (as it responds less well to washes).

Don't be deterred by others criticism of dark eldar. They are certainly a viable force. And as the meta changes, they may also become better,a s fewer people expect to see them. But, as noted by Barit, you may end up needing to "spam" one component of the list, (raiders is a common one) so changing yoru playstyle could lead to a need for lots of models.

Thanks for the replies. So clearly seems Necrons would be the safer choice.. So would stuff like heavy infantry dark eldar builds not work too well? Still have to load up on venoms to be competitive?

Well, it depends on the change in meta that occurs. If mech is reduced, and 2+ armor becomes more common, dark eldar become quite strong as a shooty list. Particularly with the night fight changes and access to farseers and/or the avatar.

Combat Dark eldar took a hit, but shooty i think will be similar to as it was. Their flyers are good, and they still have an awesome deathstar in beastmaster squad.

Although bestmaster squad is hard to collect and expensive through non converted means, as they are 1 model blisters, and a squad is 25 guys....i can suggest conversion options easily enough though if you wanted one.

Thanks for that Zidi. Just a quick question - what do you mean by beastmaster squads? What do they have in them? I've had a look through the product listing on the GW site but can't seem to find those.

I love China.. Can get the entire 25 guy beastmaster squad for $100 or there abouts..
I just got a 12 model retinue set for $50Au.. Finlly a squad of DE that are T5..

Regarding a "foot build" for dark eldar - I don't see why it wouldn't work. Eldar foot lists are arguably the most competitive of their lists.

What is important is having resilience - be that through numbers, fearlessness or each unit being hard to kill.

Don't put to much stock in what you read on all the forums. In the end, the fun of 40k is learning to learn a list. While there are probably a few players out there who look for a net list to go win a tournament with, these are the guys who are probably getting the least out of their hobby.

The best list to take is the one you design yourself.

If we do end up using more 2000 point armies.. I have 80 warriors (with 12 splinter cannons) I am just itching to try out as a foot-dar list.. Just have to work out what I am going to do for anti-tank.. Maybe complete the list with incubi, reavers and flyers.

I was going to field 80 warriors tonight (got the flu though) all with splinter cannons. My anti tank was going to be a unit of wyches in a raider with haywires and some scourges with either lances or haywire blasters and a ravager. And i guess the 2 raiders as well.

The rest was gonna be foot slogging warriors with a small beast pack (don't have the models for a big pack) some jetbikes and probably an archon with incubi or haemy with wracks and some sniper rifles. Points get pretty tight for hq and elites etc when you take 80 warriors and enough anti tank stuff as well.

But could you imagine the fun of a few advancing warrior squads putting out that many poisoned shots.

I think they are in limbo between metal and finecast atm.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1140015a
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1140009a
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1140047a

I used Hellions for beastmasters, I have a mixture of Cold ones, old style flesh hounds of khorne, some legion of everyblight models and old warp beasts for the 25 kymarae I own. I made razorwings out of the scarabs that came with tomb king kits, bought online seperately...

I have been seriously thinking of flying ripper swarms for my Razorwings.. I have some of the old warp beasts and they do me for Kymarae.. I was going to use a steed of slanesh with crab claws, for my clawed one.

Dire wolves work well for khymera. Also spreading the razorwings to have say three birds per base can help reduce costs. Another idea suggested by Drazah is to use the spare blades from Raiders and venoms to make like batwings
Worth a try

I'm using

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l583/A...ingspics058.jpg

If that makes sense. I've each individual mounted....

25 Kymerae and 8 Razorwing flocks i own lol

I think Ravagers will be used even more than before (which was quite alot already) as they can fire all there Dark Lances on them at flyers with there full BS.

Thanks for all the replies so far. So is the general view that Dark Eldar will still be competitive and with some different options in the Oz scene in 6th edition? Or will they need to spam certain elements?

Why?FOS=Fast Opentopped Skimmer no skyfire or interceptor?

DP

They have the aerial assault special rule, not sure where that fits in though...

Just means they can move 12 and fire all weapons at full BS.

Did anyone else notice and get upset with the fact skyfire still lets them fire at skimmers normally?

Can you Snapfire at full BS?

You could not, would not, on a boat.
You will not, will not, with a zoat.
You will not fire them in the rain.
You will not fire them on a train.
Not in the dark! Not in a tree!
Not with a prime! You let me be!
You can not fire them them in a box.
You can not fire them with a fox.
You can not fire them in a house.
You can not fire them with a mouse.
You can not fire them here or there.
You can not fire them ANYWHERE!
You cannot snap fire at full BS
You cannot do it John-I-Guess!

Dark Eldar will still be competitive in both comp and no com, I fell 6th has given them the ability to field more varied and user friendly lists.

Which means you fire at flyers with your full BS

Ok, drugs that you have - did you bring enough for everyone?

Firing at full BS; this gets around the firing at BS1 does it not?

For reference; Power of the Machine Spirit has the same wording.

Aeon, do you have to go around making WAU look like the foreign forums?

You haven't even brought up Psyocculum at GK Stormravens yet!

I didn't read that, that is very disappointing. Hydra's can still completely shoot down my raiders because skyfire is being used... All the negatives of flyers and ground vehicles with jink as our only real bonus (we had open topped before so...) and none of the kick ass flyer rules. Maybe raiders will only be turn one transports... Time to paint up more warriors and blasters and dark lances.
Hope that they FAQ that one soon.

I have a feeling my before 6th armies will still do alright they will just be receiving an Eldar psychic support. Which is going to be fun (Eldrad in a squad with Lady M for counter psychic immunity and more redeployment shenanigans)

Only when they disagree with me

Besides, in this case I might be right (yay!)

Firing at full BS means its not modified correct?

Yes, but as per the tyranid arguement, snap fire doesn't modify your BS, it just causes you to fire as if you have BS1.

That said, i haven't looked at machine spirit closely, so if people are saying you can fire normally with it when youve chosen skyfire mode this may be an arguement to say they can't lol.

Im ignoring the stuff that doesnt need help in shooting down flyers

(in that case Im conflicted in if its Codex Special Rule Vs Rulebook or if its a case of modifying there normal BS with 10 which then gets shot down to 1. Too many arguements against for that one - the others I can follow the logic and I feel have a legit arguement, till they are FAQed one way or another of course)

This is different (thou somewhat similar lol!)

Snapshots say there BS counts as being 1

The Ravager rule says you fire at full BS

Codex overrides Rulebook (maybe) so then you fire at the flier; you use your (full) BS of 4

So full BS skill for Ravagers? Huzzah!

Listening to Aeon is bad for your health.

I don't think so.

It says "shots against a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap fire unless it has the skyfire rule"

Does it have the Skyfire rule? No. So they can fire full BS, but when they fire at flyers it is resolved as snap fire.

What this means is that Power of the Machine spirit doesn't work like people have been saying elsewhere. It will have to snap fire at ground (if flyer is using skyfire) or at flyers (if on ground, or flyer shooting ground).

+1 to last post

BRB, P7, "Basic Vs Advanced"

"On rare occassions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

DE FAQ P2
Ravagers, Aerial Assault
Replace the entry with the following:

"Aerial Assault: Due to the largely open construction of its decks and the sophisticated targeting matrices used by its crew, a Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of its weapons using its crew full Ballistic Skill"

BRB P81 Hard to Hit
"Shots Resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

BRB P83, Shooting with Fast Vehicles
"Fast Vehicles that moved at Cruising Speed can fire up to two weapons using there Ballistic Skill - other weapons can only make Snap Shots."

BRB P13, Snapshots
"If a model is forced to make Snapshots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots."

So if you ignore the Basic Vs Advanced rule; and the DE FAQ Update, then if you move 12" the Ravager can only fire 2 shots normally and the other is at BS1... ok... Ravagers just got nerfed!

Except we have the Codex rule that overrides anything in the rule book. So I will take my 3 shots at BS4 unless firing at a flyer. GOOD DAY SIR!

I'm just saying that i don't seethe Aerial Assault rule as being in contradiction to the firing at flyers. Of course they get Full BS when firing normally, just not at flyers, as i don't think the basic vs advanced comes into it.

That said, there is a line of reasoning that the way the rules interact its simply telling you can fire the third weapon that is snap firing at full ballistic skill. Its not terribly robust grammatically (which then sets a precedent for PoMs and ravagers).

The Full BS is full of bs.

You shoot at your BS, doesn't matter what it is..
The shots are RESOLVED as BS1.. So even the Grey Knights one doesn't matter as you shoot at BS10, but resolve at BS1..

When I first started reading this thread I thought you were madcrazy and completely disagreed with you until you posted this.



If a ravager moves at cruising speed and fires it's 3rd weapon, is it still firing it as a snapshot but at full BS?
What in the Aerial Assault rule says the 3rd weapon is no longer firing as snapshot?
Dose Aerial Assault allow all snap shots to fire at Full BS?

How about we move the discussion to the rules thread and keep this one for broader dark eldar discussion?

Hi fellas, may I intervene with a quick question to both sides of the aerial assault ruling:

Why would they bother FAQ'ing the rule to make it irrelevant (snap fire ruling allows all weapons to be fired, just at reduced BS) when the Ravager was the only Heavy support that could move its full movement and fire all weapons before. So that it now acts like every other heavy? Rending the Aerial Assault ruling mute. I believe their intentions (as well as how I read the ruling) that the Aerial Assault FAQ ruling allows vehicles with Aerial Assault to fire all their weapons at full BS regardless of the snap fire ruling otherwise they would have removed the rule entirely (or left it as it was)

Don't try to get all wiffy over it fellas. FAQ over codex, codex over rulebook (irregardless of the release dates) The rule was FAQ'd to allow the ravager to continue in its role. Being able to fire everything it has until it gets penned (as they always die when they are penned)

With the (very) few games of 6th that I have played, I have noticed that flickerfields are still needed, vehicles die real easy to combat, and my ravagers like to get caught (longer charge ranges and all that jazz). I mean I know I'm still learning the rules are stuff, but I really think that flickerfields are still needed due to hitting vehicles on 3+ rule (total BS that is btw).

I'm going to have a giant infantry bash up with a guard player sometime soon. Should be good fun. Minimal vehicles on both sides, but he'll have some 150 odd troops on the field. Alot of special weapons.

I just have to hope my better BS can save me. Most of his stuff will hit on 4s and wound on 4s or better, pretty much all of mine is hit on 3 and wound on 4. But our gear has ap5, whereas only his special weapons have ap on them.

Played 2 games as DE, the vehicles if glanced now dont auto die which is nice so there is slightly more survivability which is always good.

Vehicles have the night fighting rule so nothing wrong with the first turn alpha strike.

Bikes are a bit better, with the base toughness increase and the 3+ save when turbo boosting but that doesnt save them from combat so you need to be just as careful with them.

Flickerfields are iffy, if you dont get first turn then there is no jink which can really hurt but nightshields can help out to a degree here. The autohit/on 3's to the vehicles is a bit nasty and really reduces their longevity if you are using them as assault platforms. Explosions are even nastier being at STR4 now for passengers. Expect to lose 50%+ of your occupants when you explode.

Overwatch against anything is just plain nasty now, most weapons negate all our armour saves so either bounding cover through vehicles or interveening units is a must. So two layers of assault units and charge with the back one first.

FNP nerf/buff... Has its ups and downs, but for the most part it is worse from playing with it.

Web Way Portals are now defunct, no charge on reserves has made them all but useless. Even walking through warriors or blasterborn doesnt really make any sense.

Beast got a little better and overwatch lets you spread wounds over the razorwings and khymeras but only on a 4+ so make sure your beast masters are leading from behind. Mine got sniped out and Ld 5 is nasty to roll...

No Razorwings or Voidravens so not able to comment on them.

Not sure where we will see the meta going either for more infantry or stay mech heavy, but I expect to see a lot more 5man wych squads with haywires jumping around now.

So far Ive played a few games and I don't feel particularly aggrieved. We certainly lost some things, FNP down to 5+ is a big hit, but then we gain on other things like Reavers which got a lot better.

Hellions with Baron has long been a favborite unit of mine and the only drawback they suiffered from 5th to 6th is that FNP, but they gain the Impact from the Sky hits if using their skyboard(jump packs) to move into assault... And since they're fleeet you casn still move the full 12" and have a reroll to the charge range anyway (Of course you won't get the impact hits this way but meh).

Vehicles: Flickerfields and Night SHields continue to be excellent choices and are essential for our flyers. One little gem I picked up for OT transports is that if someone does charge the raider then the squad aboard gets to use it's Overwatch.... And suddenly I become curious about splinter racks....

FLyers: Man, I thought Razorwings were fun in 5th, yet in 6th they only seem to have gotton better. And now I'm dead keen to try the Voidraven, it may be a scary beast....

Wyches: Assault is more difficult for them as nearly every Overwatch shot that hitsa kills a wych.... I think firepower has become more important in 6th and that suits the style of DE I usually take.

Pain Power:
Ok, FNP is slightly nerfed, although it does work vs all APs now.
Furious CHarge was supposedly nerfed but generally our high initiative is already totally adequate and what we really value is the +1 S which we still get...
FInally, being Fearless means no potential "No Retreat" wounds, so they really do become more survivable...

A few of our units come equipped with plasma grenades giving us fun options vs scouts and bastions and so on...

I think Archons may become more common in 6th (Blaster + Huskblade?)