So various of us want to use IA in tournaments. But obviously there is going to be problems with just allowing all IA without some sort of controls.

So how about we come up with a list of units that are ok to use?
Pin it up the top of the 40k section and then TOs can just put a line in their player packs referring to it (eg: IA units from WAU approved list allowed).

Surely between all of us we can come up with a good selection of stuff that won't break the game any worse than the allies rules

How about any IA with the 40K approved stamp?

Maybe Just give 8th edition 6 months first before we even think about IA.

I was just going to use my IA models as counts as.. For example Decimator as a dready.. It just looks so nice. As well as my two Nurgle dreads (now they only focus-fire in a 45 degree arc) and the Plague Hulk as a defiler.. I only see them as a great way to have better looking models.

Ashmantle should be allowed now. I assume only 3hp so will go down easily now with simple glancing hits.

Heresy! We must come up with our own, convoluted methods of doing things.



8th Edition!? What happened to 7th?! (Let alone 6th)

Sorry its very easy to get confused between WFB and 40k now.

I'm cool with that. Don't know if everyone will be though.

You're asking WAU to come to a consensus? Ok I'll get right on that.

Im going to cockblock you every time you try and reach a decision.

Since when was WAU a body for deciding anything, anyway? We don't even have a single, unifying tournament system, what makes you think each individual TO will agree to a WAU 'ruling' on what can and can't be taken to a tourney?

Tantulus looks fun with is 12 str 5 ap 2 shots (and 4 hullpoints ) and Reapers are downright deadly!

Of course. How silly of me. I was forgetting its a forum.

I would be happy with anything that is 40k Stamped.

-Dono

This.


In anticipation of the people who think its unfair to those without access to the rules.. I dont have the GK codex & dont want to fork out for a book im not going to use, but im not going to try & stop you from using it when you have the book.

Easy

This. People don't seem to get this though. There's quite a few codices I don't own but I'm not going to complain about someone using one against me.

This again.

Forge World just updated their FAQ's and holo fields are now back to closer to what they were. 5+ invul save vs all hits and 4+ for the enhanced holo fields if the titan has moved. Nice to see a company that listens to fans and makes a effort to update their rules quickly and not wait 3-6 months to fix stuff.

The difference is, I can walk into a GW store and buy a copy of the codex. Buying a copy of a Forgeworld IA book is a bit hit and miss at the best of times. And I'm less likely to be able to borrow a friend's copy, since they're also less likely to own one.

Still, I've been allowing IA in tournaments for years.

How is it a bit hit and miss? You've got the internet and a credit card right?

I do - not everyone does. Yes, even in this age, I know several people who refuse to buy anything online...

Imperial Armour books are now available in all Games Workshop stores and they can order in any book as long as it is currently available.

Not saying that you need to, but I honestly think that the argument about needing access to the book is a weak one. People cannot be expected to be familiar with every Codex and army available, I have no idea how certain armies work, like Necrons, Grey Knights, Sisters etc but it shouldnt prevent an opponent from playing them against me in a tournament, or even a social game.


-Dono

Yep. I don't know how every army works. As long as my opponent knows his or her army I trust him or her. Before people cry "but what if they cheat!?", my personal view is simply that if your life is so sad that you need to cheat at a game to feel like you're a 'winner' then more power too you and you clearly have bigger issues than cheating at a game.

I think "I don't know the rules" is a convenient excuse. Access is NOT an issue as Dono has said above. As I said in another thread some people seem happy to spend money buying every codex and pouring over each one looking for each particular loophole they can find either for themselves or to confound opponents. They are not willing to do the same on IA even though those books ARE available. It then rapidly becomes an argument about "I don't have the money" or "I don't want to spend the money" on IA books and this shouldn't be an argument for allowing or disallowing any rules set.

I think most people don't have an issue because they don't have a copy of the Imperial Armour rules.

Its mostly because some Imperial Armour add something to the rules that that doesn't exist in any codex. Like drop pods that you can assault out of, walkers with a 30" assault range...etc. So it kind of sucks to have to deal with these units that can be game changers. Plus I guess you could also get units not normally available to your army but this isn't an issue any more due to the allies rule.

A lot of TO's just don't want to have to sort out what units are ok and what aren't. So they generally Just Ban them all to save time or say IA only with pre-approval.

I very much doubt some people don't want people to run say "Salamander scout vehicles" because they don't have the rules for them. I mean whats to know its a Chimera hull, Fast vehicle, that opened topped and has an autocannon on top.All of these are standard rules found in the rule book.

It's the IA with rules the go against the Main rule book that cause people issues.

Nearly every codex has this but it's just called 'special rules' or 'codex rules'. The language makes it seem bad. You say rules that "go against the main rule book" people immediately start with "hmm yeah, I don't like the sound of that". You could describe the exact same situation with something like "army specific rules", "unique rules" or as most of the codecies say "this is an exception to the normal rule" and it would be received in the same way all other codecies are received.

...and the drop pod thing has long since been fixed but EVERYONE cites that one unit as a reason to ban an entire series of books. Please!!! Let's ban all legal codecies because some paladin builds are broken. It's the same argument.

It's a good example changed or not of why people do not just want all IA allowed in a tournament. Because they keep coming out with things like this. So you have to go on a case by case basis.

WFB tournaments still have bans of special character for much the same reason and they are in the rule books. TO's don't want to have to look at the lot of them one y one so they blanket ban them all to save time.

Plus Some people just want to keep things simple, you allow AI, what about random WD rules? what about fan dex's. TO's have to draw a line somewhere some do it as Codex's only.

Plus when TO's start to pick and choose what unit is OK and what Isn't, not only does that mean more work it means more whinging.

"Cry, why did you ban this it's not so bad I spent $150 on this, I should be able to use it, Cry"
"whinge, OMG this is banned and this isn't OMG that so dumb, the TO is dumb, whinge"
"grumble, I lost because of this AI unit, it broken the TO should have banned it, grumble"

...etc

So far, in the tourneys I've allowed IA in (which is pretty much all of them - see my sig), I've had a person run Vultures, and that's it. For the event on Saturday, I've got one person using an IA special character, and I disallowed another as over the top. That's it, in almost 4 years of allowing IA. Oh, and there was a guy a few years ago who ran the Elysian list, but didn't actually use any new units.

I would agree that the Lucius is better than it was, and not such a good reason for closing off IA. However, there are still things in IA books that plug holes in exisitng codexes. Stationary gun emplacements for IG, for instance - way cheaper than a Basilisk or Griffon! Then there are a number of the Demon Engines that close gaps in the Chaos codex, like the Blight Drones.

I get what you mean. That's why I thought we could do up a common list of allowable units so that it isn't up to a single TO to figure it all out on their own.

All 40k stamped would be the easiest, but you're probably going to get people whinging about specific ones.

What if we start with stuff that basically no-one will have a problem with.

Eg: Sentinal Powerlifter, Salamander scout, Hornet, tarantula

Just on the lucius drop pod i would of Thought the changes in 6th ed now make that rule of assaulting from deep-strike / reserve redundant?

It still has a specific rule allowing it to Assault, similar to how the Caestus Assault Ram has a specific rule allowing it to Ram even though it is a Flyer.

-Dono

I just want to play my red scorpions as a army list with nerf to FNP apocs in tac squads should be fine

Won't this go quicker if we make a list of 40k approved IA that we don't think is balanced?

I want to run my tyrants guard & imperial fist siege assault lists dammit!

I reckon both of those lists would be pretty acceptable in 6th. Tyrant's Legion especially, since flyers are now a part of the main game, they are also about the only element of the list which would make it semi competitive (though 20 man marine squads are looking pretty buff).

I am not too familiar with the Siege list.

-Dono

Yes. a much better idea.

Item no.1 Deathstorm drop pods.

One of these in a list is nasty. More than one is awful. Whilst they are pretty ordinary against marine based lists, they utterly decimate anything with low armour saves.


Item no.2, Cyclops demolition tanks.

I love these guys, really I do. They're not overpowered, or terribly difficult to deal with. Its just that their rules are inadequate and leave too many questions as to how they are deployed. Need an FAQ.

I've played a few games of 6th now with my Minotaurs Siege Assault list. Nothing particularly of note except that it's VERY hard to win a game thanks to the Siege objective. In games where there are lots of objectives you need to be able to hold half of them plus the siege objective or lose. The list has a Caestus in it and an Achilles land raider and I still got pasted in one and lost 1 of the other 2 narrowly because I couldn't grab enough objectives. Having a siege dreadnought talon as troops is cool but given vehicles can't hold an objective you're stretched pretty thin.

The list is not broken at all and in fact is basically a handicapped list but still people scream "cheese", "broken", "IA is all over the top"! I would LOVE to sit down at a tournie and face a Red Scorpions, Tyrant's Legion, Elysian, Krieg or Corsair list. They are unique and fun to play against as well as with.

Hopefully I will have my Tyrant's Legion list up and running in a month or two (got all of the Marine component sorted) just getting the IG components painted. I've been looking forward to playing a Siege list with it for a long time; A come get some list vs. I'm comin for ya list!

-Dono

Bring it traitor!!

High Lord Lapdog!

a) is it 40k approved?
b) You would be sinking points into what is essentially an av 10, static gun that only works against the minority of tournament opponents (ie, not marines).


You dont want dreads in CC anymore.. really.
So being able to assault a dread the turn it lands isnt so good anymore.
Also, BA dont get them.. so no same turn blender assaults.

Wanna take one against me in a tourney?
haha cool, sure.



Siege list iws designed to be handicapped.. even says it in the book!
Thats why I want it for my imperial fists!
There are a few rude-ish things you can do with it (twin flying assault boats w/ assault grenades & a blast melta, filled with termies + lysander.. backed up by squadrons of vindicators &/or storm birds to points?).. but overall, the combos it allows arent as harsh as many 40k codex ones (which dont have the drawbacks!)

If one item is REALLY good against some army's it's a good enough reason not to be able to take it.

But its a one trick pony that is easily countered..
Its a bit of a cheap shot, but even less of a threat in 6th.. a squad of firewarriors could blow it away!

Does it still get a round of shooting at every unit withing 12" when it lands, with D3 str 5 AP4 large blast?

Because, I'm not so sure there would be any firewarriors.

It's a one trick pony that I'll give you but it's trick will decimate anyone who doesn't have a 3+ save or is in a Vehicle.

I took one to a tournament once, it put alot of fear into the opponent; due to cover saves and scattering it really didnt do much. Also it died in the turn after it came down. Every. Single. Time.

don't forget with the changes to cover, Barrage being able to "snipe", likely hood of 6th having less vehicles and the loss of Kill points I think it just got a lot better.

Really after it unloads it's not bad as then it just get one shot, sounds like revenge killing.

It's still damn cheap for 75pts.

Only 75 points to have a good chance of mauling any non MEQ army? Only 75 points each to drop a few 'must kill' models in the midst of his army taking the heat off the rest of my army? Who CARES if it only lasts one turn, that's more than enough!

Wish my army had access to these 'one trick ponies'...



RoV

I don't think they're in any of the books with the wee '40K approved stamps."

I think their most recent iteration has them at 90pts, and they are, of course, armour 12, not ten.

Against any army with low armour saves they are perfectly heinous.


Having said that, I really want to see more IA stuff in army lists, and for the most part I'm not seeing any real problems with the currently stamped items.

I remember playing your Deathclaw pod the first Arc I went to Craig. Interesting and different, but not a game changer really.

Did you have all of the deepstriking guard that year? Or am I mixing you up with something else..

Nope, I was playing Dark Angels I think.