Hey guys,

So I was reading some of the faq's when something hit me: Logan Grimnar, Dante, Astorath and anyone else with an axe... strike at initiate 1. In the case of Astorath and Dante their weapons say AXE and count as power weapons and I've been told ( I haven't read the SW faq yet) that the same applies to Logan ( except he get the normal Frost weapon bonus)... why?

Of them, only Dante's is init 1. The others have their own special rules, and so are treated as unusual power weapons (AP 3 + their special rules).

Axes gives +1 Str and are AP 2 (instead of the standard AP 3 for power weapons now).

Logan can swing his axe as a frost blade or a power fist

Dante has a special power weapon aswell! So all AP3 at init! It has other rules which override the axe rules

What about Kharn with Gorechild?

Mastercrafted counts as unique?

still lots of debate about that.

His weapon isn't listed in his equipment as a MC Power Weapon (axe), but as the Axe Mortalis, which you then have to look up.

I tend to think AP3 at I, but otherwise, according to RAW, there's nothing stopping you from cutting the axe and replacing it with a sword (apart from fluff).

Power Axe with extra bits. So now he doesn't kill anyone until I1.

damn. So with the nerf to furious charge as well, berzerkers are not looking like being worth their 20 pts each.

No he doesn't, his axe has a name, but it doesn't make it special. The Axe Mortalis is just a master crafted Axe.

So its +1 Strength, AP 2, Master Crafted.

All of the weapons I mentioned in their special rules say count as a power weapon ( with extra wot-notz).

Only power weapons get the AP value, close combat weapons dont matter.

Is gorechild just a power weapon and the 2+ to hit and 2D6 ap in kharn's rules or gorechilds?

That's all Gorechild.

Well doesn't that make it a unique power weapon then?

Found nothing in the erata for Astorath and Dante but did find this

Page 48 - Kharn the Betrayer, Gorchild.
Change the txt of the last sentence to read: “In addition, Gorchild is treated as a power axe and, against vehicles, adds D6 to Kharns armour penetration roll”.
Page 57 – Space Wolves Wargear, Frost Blade or Frost Axe
Replace the last sentence with the following
Range Str AP Type
Frost Blade - +1 3 Melee
Range Str AP Type
Frost Axe - +2 2 Melee,
Unwieldy
Its amazing what you can find on the Gamesworkshop wabsite

Above post proved me wrong lol so edited.

Ninjad.

Dantes axe... is a weird one. I would say its a AP2, +1 Str, I1 axe. Master Crafted.

Otherwise your going to get things like (space marine captains with things like master crafted power axes that are AP3... etc)

Glaive Encarmines are another weird one. They are just master crafted power weapons... that are 2 handed. So do they count as unusual power weapons?

Nothing in the BA FAQ to indicate they are unusual power weapons or anything. Like other FAQ's for other marine chapters etc. (thinking of calgar...) he has the option of a power weapon or to use his power fists... however his model has no power weapon on it.... so can you just say he has a power axe? or power sword?

small things they have missed etc...

I am still yet to find another codex with a power halberd.

This is part of the reason why I think that grey knight halberds strike at I3, Str 5.... Yet I am crazy...

There's arguments galore over these and things like Dante's axe. The rule about unusual power weapons getting AP3 says the weapon needs "unique close combat rules", not just special rules (like Master Crafted, etc - 6th ed version of the USRs). Kharn's axe got FAQed, as it would have otherwise been counted as a unique AP3 weapon. Dante's axe and the axe Glaive Encarmines didn't get FAQed which has left some people arguing that Master Crafted and Two Handed are unique close combat rules.

And yet... Frost Axes get +2 Str and strike at I1.

Over on the BnC a member has recieved a response from a GW employee, make of it as you will



Good Morning James

Thanks for the email about the New Warhammer 40'000 rules. We would be happy to answer your questions about the new Warhammer 40'000 rules, Are you running a Blood Angel army at the moment and what are you running in your list?

1) There has been some debate over what qualifies as a unusual power weapon (or Force weapon). Here are a few examples and I am wondering if they qualify. All have special rules, which by page 61 says they do not go look at the weapon to determine type.

Dante's Axe Mortalis
Glaive Encarmines
Astorath's Executioner's Axe
Relic Blades
Demon Weapons
Ahriman's Black Staff.

All of these weapons do count as Unusual power weapons and are AP3 in close combat, as they all have other rule other than being a power weapon.

2) Does Captain Tycho have an AP Value? Or does he just ignore all armor saves?

Brother Captain Tyco just Ignores all armour saves with the Dead Mans Hand, and rolls a extra D6 for armour penatration. How cool is that?

3) If I use a signum to make a shooter BS5, does that override the snapfire restriction for firing a moving heavy weapon or shooting a flyer?

Yes but it can only be used in the Shooting phase, not when being charged.

4) Can Artillery fire overwatch (assuming the artillery is not blast such as Ork Artillery)

Yes as long as the weapon is not a blast weapon.

Hope that this helps and if you have any other questions please contact us again.

Page 2 in the rulebook..



So.. How do you do subtraction AFTER the set value if the rules state you MUST do the set value last?? No I3 axes for you.

EDIT:: As to the third point above I can agree and disagree. His BS will be 5 but the snapfire rule does not alter BS so it doesn't matter what his BS is. But if it is accepted then the Nids will laugh all the way to the I shoot everyone EXCEPT my commander who now makes the unit BS5. Well they needed some help in shooting.

This is why people only accept official FAQ's....

Unfortunately as much as this makes sense( aside from the ap3 bit :/) until they officially faq this...

They don't need to, as this is how the rules actually work. When you read them. In the rulebook.

the reasoning for unusual power weapons contradicts with kharn...

so kharn gets the faq bat and blangles dont...




JoD

") If I use a signum to make a shooter BS5, does that override the snapfire restriction for firing a moving heavy weapon or shooting a flyer?

Yes but it can only be used in the Shooting phase, not when being charged"

This one makes me thinkin again about chooser of the slain now -

Yes, Kharn needs the FAQ as his axe has "unique close combat rules", so it would be an AP3 unusual power weapon without the FAQ. The Blangles don't get FAQed as Dante's axe and the Glaives don't have "unique close combat rules", which is why they're just power axes (S+1, AP2, I1). Which is how the rules actually work. When you read them. In the rulebook.

When you read these together it indicates that any additional rule is enough to make a power weapon unusual.

No, read the whole rulebook. At least read the whole page.

The power weapon types only apply to power weapons with no additional rules. This is stated in two places. In one of them the term "Unique special rules" is used, which doesn't mean much. Do Relic Blades have unique special rules? Executioners from the Eldar codex are exactly the same!

All this points to is crap FAQ's

It's not GW's fault people don't know how to read well and analyse information correctly.

Well, in some cases they could make the rules clearer. For example I'd put the blame firmly on GW for the mess that is Look Out Sir (watch some games, nobody is playing it right). In this case GW shouldn't have used the word "Unique", which is superfluous and has lead to confusion.

I am reading the whole page. The part that says "no further special rules" is not the part that says "treat as AP3". They're two separate things, under separate headings. They're poorly written as technically Dante's axe doesn't fit into either category: it has "further special rules" (Master Crafted), but it does not have "its own unique close combat rules" (Astorath's axe is an example of something that does). You can't just point at the first and say "yes that's it" and then apply the AP3 bit from the second rule while ignoring its requirements.

An FAQ update would solve the problem nicely.


Or they shouldn't have used "no further special rules" in the first bit. Consistent terminology would help.

So we have two options here:

Opton 1: "Master Crafted" is not a unique rule, and Dante's Axe is undefined with no way of knowing how to play it.

Option 2: "Master Crafted" is a unique rule, and Dante's Axe is AP3.

Which do you think is more likely?

Note that there is no reading by which it can be a Power Axe.

The annoying thing is, it really wouldn't of been that much effort for gamesworkshop to sit down and go through all the codices making an index of weapons names, strength, AP, and special rules. When they were unique, they could of just asterixed and said "refer to codex"

That sounds like a significant amount of effort actually.

Yep, it's odd since they did all the ranged weapons, but then just a small selection of CC weapons. Seems like an oversight.

I'd be happy to just see non-special character gear listed. Would be better for Necron players to be able to point to a rulebook to show their Warscythes are AP1 rather than an FAQ, for example!

Not for how many copies of the rulebook they will sell... seriously I could do it in a lazy afternoon.

masted crafter cant be unique as more (waaay more) than 1 model has that rule. a unique rule would be gorechilds ability to hit on a 2+.

unique means the only one of its kind, so if there are multiple models with a rule on a weapon, its not a unique rule.


JoD

spulleng edit

Did you read the thread Jester?

So if your reading is that master crafted alone (or with another special rule) doesn't make a weapon unique then do you agree the only other interpretation is that the weapon doesn't have any rules, due to the wording of the section about deciding which type of power weapon to use?

Also, does this mean you think the eldar executioner is not a unique special rules, as it's exact set of special rules are duplicated in another codex?

i have read the thread, master crafted is not a unique rule, so anything with just master crafted cant count it as unique, if it has other rules that are unique, sure, then its unique, but master crafted alone does not make it unique.



JoD

So what your saying is, if I buy my captain a power axe. Then mastercraft it, it becomes AP3?

Does master crafted and two handed count as unique?
How unique must a unique rule be? As stated the executioner shares rules with the relic blade, are they both unique or are they not because they share quite special rules with exactly one other obscure weapon in the game?

How do you reconcile your view with this paragraph?



As this only applies to power weapons with no further special rules. So does that mean that dante's axe does not work at all, as it's not a unique power weapon, but also not a power weapon with no further special rules?

No. You buy your captain a power weapon. You look at your model and it's an axe so it's a power axe.

You buy the axe master-crafted. It doesn't change what rules the weapon has, it's a master-crafted power axe. The difference is between an axe that is mastercrafted and an power weapon with a name and a set of special rules that make it master crafted amongst other things.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it shouldn't be FAQd the other way. I'm saying that on a logical reading of the rules it works this way.

The wording of the rule is it has a unique special rule. Not it has a unique name.

That's fine. The master-crafted power weapon has no additional special rules. It is a generic power weapon that is master-crafted.

So what's the difference between this generic master crafted power weapon and Dante's master crafted power weapon? Neither have additional special rules. Wouldn't they both be power axes if modelled that way?


In fact: a "unique close combat rule". Special rules aren't mentioned at all in the unusual power weapons section.

Whichever way you read the two, you need to assume that one phrase means the other (otherwise some things don't fit into either). Does "special rules" mean the rules in the Special Rules chapter, or does it mean weapon specific rules like Kharn's or Astorath's axes? Does "unique close combat rules" include things like Master Crafted which aren't unique or specifically close combat rules?

Personally, I never considered Dante's axe, the Axe Mortalis, which is an axe on the GW model, to be anything but a power axe until I browsed on here. Now my head hurts and I'll just play it that way until a FAQ resolves it.

Dante's Axe is the "Axe Mortalis".