Hey y'all,
Some of you have seen my Suicide Kroot in action, Some have not but may of read of there mis-adventures(Damn Airport Security).

I've had some negative feedback at the last Sydney GT where some guy told me to my face I was destroying the Scoring System and was not a serious gamer, I politely told him what he could do with his model case. And some Jibs where people thought nothing of playing me have not helped.
So in turn, While the Chap App is still accepted I'll keep playing but would like some feedback because I love the little fellas. But do not want any Ill will...

Does anyone think playing them is to much of a "Gimme" for tournament play?

Also, anyone who has had success with them or anyone who has played me what do you think?
I find turn 4 I go from threatening to wiped out, in almost every game? Suggestions?

Dal

You were absolutely right to tell him where to stick it. If you're having fun and your opponent is having fun, then nothing else really matters. Though my record is over 50% wins, some of the best games I've had were losses or draws, not all, but definitely some.

I haven't played a Kroot army, so I can't really help with where you are going wrong, but 4th turn losses generally mean that your lines are being reached with stronger assault units, so a counter-attack strategy may be best. You have no vehicles, so you can't control fire lanes, but I'm assuming that you can take some kind of cheaper bait unit to redirect the enemy's attentions.

Don't let your enemy make you react hastily, try to turn the tables, anticipation by working out scenarios can help greatly.

I can't speak for the Kroot list, but...in general, there is absolutely nothing to stop you playing an over- or under-powered list. If you wanted to play a list of nothing but Imperial Guard squads with no weapon upgrades...more power to you! If you want to play a Blood Angel list with 6 5-man scout squads, vehicles and a couple of assault sqauds backing up 2 chaplains - that's your call, not anyone else's. I once faced a Dark Eldar army with 130 warriors. It was probably the worst performer at the event, but the guy was enjoying the challenge of using DE without raiders or tougher units. Nobody ever complained about beating him...

Whoever told you you were 'ruining the Scoring System' was obviously only in the event to win, not to enjoy playing games. I'd likely have given him a few choice words myself, had I been there.

It's a game - play how you want, so long as you are comfortable with the consequences of your choices.

Dal, I'm a firm beleiver that any army can win not only games but tournies as well.

Where do I find the Kroot list to have a look at?

Oh and as for ruining the scoreing system, I'd like to see how they back that up with actual numbers to justify their statement.

Was he a marine player by any chance? Sounds like he was only there for glory to me...in it for the win.

I've never played a full kroot list (only Tau/Kroot mixed), so can't really comment on it too much, but I have seen one taken to 2000 point tournament (it didn't do too well however). The guy playing it had a ball I think though. It's simply a list that's suited to certain types of missions and situations, and not others. It adds a bit of flavour though as it's so different to what you normally see.

Normally I don't hit assault units that bother me, same with guns. A boolter kills me as easy as a las cannon. There are alot of wasted points when someone faces kroot tooled up.
I think the issue is when it makes assault. Untill then I've got 80 Bolt Guns and a 4+ becasue I'm in cover.
In assault I'll match any unit point for points for causing damage. It's the taking of damage that does it.
I have enough units to counter assault easy and use that tactic alot. 12 Units on the table 30 charging st 4 attacks each...


I agree any army can win any game... I honnestly thing I've suprised enough people to make a winning list from the Kroot. Thats why I persist with them. I love the Models and the uniqueness... I own 12 armies now. I could use any, but it keep scomming back to them.

GW UK site, look a thet tau page and there will be a chap ap bit at the bottom.



How did you guess...lol.

to be honest i have more fun playing an army that is one trick only. it gives me an oppurtunity to decide what units i need to add to combat those elements.

as far as an all kroot army is concerned, it is fragile to max isn't it? i mean T3 and a 6/5+ armour save on just about everything (unless you take the extra toughness variety) can mean that you have more trouble against the bolter line marine army or guard with heaps of heavy bolters then any other army.

was the guys army an assualt heavy marine army or another army that was geared towards the assualt phase?

if it was i can understand if you were outshooting him and he said it out of frustration (sux to be that guy)

but ruining the scoring system? if anything chapter approved armies would have a harder time then any other standard armies at winning games. they are normally paying more for units that have abilities that don't match their points cost - kroot vultures for instance: you get the jump trooper ability (?) and what else for how many points (is it 15 or so, don't have the chapter approved with me) and they still die quite easily when hit with bolter rounds.

and comp score should not be affected just because its a chapter approved army.

it sounds as though this guy was not used to being beaten with an army that he thought was inferior to his own and it was a case of bad sportsmanship

anyway, if your having fun playing the list then it shouldn't matter what other people think

- LoCU

I may of worded the situation poorly.
He was playing and I was watching(because I'd lost) he asked what I had, Told him kroot and he had the go at me.

He wasn't even playing you, what a ####

Yeah, Thats kind of why I told him to go do what I told him to.
I fig I was with the moral majority on his actions. I'm over what he said specifically.

My main query is do people mind facing an easy win army, or does it take the fun out of it if you win too easy(Which with the wrong mission can happen).

My Kroot have gone through quite a few evolutions since i had them. First they were the I4 kroot hound blood of the stalker first turn assult force. Worked well for a list. But after one game where i lost a 30 strong squad against a marine unit that only did 3 wounds to me and i only caused 2 OUT OF 86 ODD ATTACKS! 5 of which were power weapons. I decided that maybe that kid of brute force was best left to Nids.

Then i went for the Still I4 list but this time it was just huge hordes of Kroot to hide in cover with a squad of ox up the back and the Hunters as suport. Again it worked somewhat but once your opponent has out ranged you then you really dont have the ability to rush over the table (unless your lucky with infiltrate) in order to hide in CC. So that idea was scraped.

Now my list has from what i can see one of the strangest combos i could think of. Tank hunting Cavilry snipers! Im speaking non other than the trackers with a shapers armed with and evicerators. This force basicly works as a fire base. Has 3 main squads of Standard kroot, a squad of hounds as either a head on assult or counter assult force. 2 Tracker units as described above, Melta flamer evicerator toating shaper council with blood of the stalker and fleet of foot (for that lucky turn one scary tank kill or assult), a squad of basic snipers and the master shaper with the Totem and i have to say its quite suprising (Istaur can back me up on this one)

You effectivly get 2 modes of play, Assult or Sniper. With the 3 squads of snipers you have a good chance at taking down infantry and keeping them pinned (especialy the heavy weapons ones) Or takeing out anything with armour 12 or less. If you have tanks that are bugging you then you have the council to deal with OR the evicerators in the tracker squads! these guys if they are get a 6 on their fleet move can get a 24 Inch charge. And with the evicerator in hand your are looking at one dead tank . Evicerators in the other squads help as well as melta bombs here and there too. But one thing about the kroot is that no matter what happens i always enjoy playing them. I enjoy being killed with em as much as i enjoy destroying my enemys with them (more so cause of how many flaws the kroot have!)

I would love to win a tournament with them but i dont think its going to happen. One they really dont have the much survivablity over many other armys, Squads are in alot of situations just ablative wounds for the shaper since all you get in squads are more kroot with rifels! Not a single extra weapon option in site! The only long range gun AT squad(other than the FW mounted knarloc) costs 251 points! for 13 models with less 48" fire power than 2 guard auto cannon teams!

Seriously if anyone wants to kuss out kroot they can just crawl up in a hole and Die. They are one of the most fluffy lists out IMO and so open to conversion (much like orks) But as for composition, I really dont think that it works for the Kroot. Mainly because in order to be effective you need the skills of the other squads (again IMO) more than huge hordes of Basic kindred. If they could take OX in them then maybe they could prove more usefull than a simple Large squad. But as it stands they can really turn into expensive cannon fodder.

Having said that i cant really remember what the point of everything i wrote was! I just love my kroot and you should too! YOU ALL SHOULD!

sorry, i get it now.

that guys sounds like a complete tosser if he has to stop playing his game just to abuse someone who is a bystander about their army

i don't mind the whole easy win thing, to be honest my dice rolls let me down a lot on easy win armies... have more losses due to bad dice rolling than anything else.

but there are always those missions that will benefit you and not the other player.

i wouldn't be too concerned with the way your army plays, just as you like playing with it

- LoCU

winning so easily is annoying, thats why I quit 40k dal
however I do recon you play them rather odd, for eg that 1st game at perd, you split your army in half...one half went to the drop pod...theres only 10 guys you could have killed, and looking at it from another angle, were they were you could have left them there all together, they posed no immediate threat!! with such a "soft" (t3) army with no vehicles I recon you really need to hit the enemy one unit at a time with everything you have.etc etc...hope the feedback is taken with no prejudice!!

If you use the giant kroot beasts from IA3 you can have a respectable assault / counter attack unit.

I can see one of the problems with the Kroot is that they perfrom some missions really well and some really badly and are likely very dependant on terrain.

If you drew Kroot on a jungle table defending in sabotage then you might get a bit grumpy but it would eb a challange.

I do think the models and rules are quite cool.

With all the models to move, fleet assalt and fight with how do you get the games done in 2.5 hours? I can't do that with my guardsmen.

Well considering you've beaten me twice now with them, no.
I don't like winning too easily, the best games are those that go down to the wire, that last game we played was fun, mid way could have gone either way depending on my shooting and my gamble with the demolisher didn't pay off so you rolled up the line.

As for this guys comments, well clearly I shouldn't go to tournaments because I lose most of my games and therefore mess up the scoring... retard...

I gave up going for seriously cheesy armies back when my brother got a first turn win with a techmarine and 22" vortex missile 'army'. Really, whats the point? I now tend to go for 'fluffy' armies, although I can be a sucker for themed min/maxing, I like things like all tank armies, or maxing out walkers or dreads. But these armies tend to win big lose big.

Don't get me wrong, winning is fun, but I'm at the tournament to have fun, not be an arsehole and win at any cost.

Bring on the Kroot I say

Chris, it was funky escalation... there was only the drop pod and 2 units on the table... the drop pod was 12" away from my fast attack and the rest of my army had the 2 squads covered. After you left that squad that went fro the pod did a break for the objective and almost made it.

yeah, I use a Mounted Great Knarloc from tim eto time with IA3 rules. It's actually a carnifex with a OX's head. Works ok, 6+ is again the limiting factor.

Turbo,
With you all the way Buddy! And I've found the same problems...
Love you list Ideas. I'll have to do some proxy. I normally don't use the trackers because of cost.
All in all, I fig my Suicide Kroot can rank in Tourny and I'll keep playing till they do(Somewhere I hear the =][= laughing at me) And before anyone chips in, last is not a rank!


Chance both times my Friend. You were just unlucky that my guys could make assauly with Hillys "Kill everything dead" last round...

bring the kroot.. variety is something to be cherished

I think the kroot are great really. Although I must admit i can see how people would come up against them and think "oh here we go, crushing victory coming up here", they arent as wussy as they look. I know i thought itd be an easy win, and I was surprised at how good they actually were (especially considering i nearly lost ).

Speople dont like armies such as tank companies cause they can be very hard to play against, but the kroot arent really as tough as a tank company. They offer a variety of units that you dont normally see plus they have a few tricks that can catch you off guard. They are a very liable army, without being over the top in the case of *some* tank companies.

Yeah, no worries Dal, you already know I reckon that guy's comment was completely out of line. What a stupid thing to say!

Anyway, assuming he was on the table right next to you, ( ) he wasn't exactly winning every game either.... he's the last person to be questioning somone's reasons for being at a tourny based on battle point performance...

This gets back to the whole reason composition and sports were introduced... the realisation that to be successful, tournaments have to be enjoyable for every player, not just the guys who make the top 3...

Sounds like there's some great ideas re the army, I'd like to see that force with a few trackers Turbo mmx mentions.

As for the army, well I think your next step is to build some decent bits of forest to bring to Waucons... the problem with Cryx Cup etc is we have almost no forest terrain that is more than 6" deep.... Kroot can be darned brutal from 8" inside a forest and all of the sudden their low T and crappy save almost don't matter at all against shooting from outside the forest (Guess weapons, FotA, and Vibrocannons can still threaten)

If you were well dug in to an 18" forest piece with the shaper council (and Knarloc) ready to charge anything that comes in, you could use Kroot how they're supposed to be used and then we'll see if ppl don't change their tune very quickly!

I had the experience of just one large kroot squad 8" in a forest at a recent tourny, and was nervous with how to deal and was pretty pleased when he came out of there (Why I dont know.... maybe he thought it was unfair? crazy)

I reckon we oughta have one jungle table at Waucons and allow you to play on it at least once per con... that should make a difference and once you start devising winning tactics you will get some clues on how to use the more regular terrain at other tables...

It's all about maximising your strengths, which are field craft and to some extent melee.

In our gumby game you exposed the Knarloc far too early, he should have stayed right out of sight until I was close enough for the bulk of your army to charge me. And you should have made more use of the forests (from memory I combined two forest pieces with a hill and you should have been able to contrive a benefit from field craft in there).

Know your strengths and maximise them. Be aware of your weaknesses and try to both minimise them and keep the weaknesses from opponent whenever possible...

BTW, with me I tend to always give Kroot 5/5 on general principle, so don't worry about %s too much!

I can only support what Turbo has said and to agree the guy was a tool.

I've been playing Kroot armies since before they came out as a trial codex. Believe it or not but I've never played a jungle fight with them. However in cities of death - fear them!! these days I play a similar army to you Koldk by the sounds of it - hide, fire and let them assault into cover... I've had alot of sucess, but the turn 4 die off it really hard to swallow after a while. The suicide Tracker 1st turn assault squad is useful for taking out the leman ruus that's going to hurt you, but isn't a game winner. neither is the tooled up master shaper. What wins battles in the good old nasic kroot... though the butchers bill is hard to pay.

I've only ever had a handful of massacres as wins, most of my wins have been marginal - but quite frankly, that's where it's fun!!

Sure people can make super armies - but are they fun to play with or against? Depends what you want out of the hobby I guess.

Uber,
Thans for the vote of confidence. the turn 4 fall looks so bad every tourny. Everyone presumes they just get mowed down.

I run my master with 2 hounds, Melta, Child and Power. (Frags of course)
I run a council occasionally when I feel like destroying something beautiful... lol

Still torn on the initiative V Toughness thing... Hmmm....
My next addition is Lots of hounds to counter the Toughness cost and to keep the init 4 in half the models(60 Hounds anyone?)....

Don't bother witht he toughness - too many points and therefore Kroot you are loosing.

I was always a fan of the +1 iniative at first, but then I was playing predominately SM or CSM... Hiting them at I4 was great for teh 1st/2nd turn assault wave, but again I'd be dead turn 4 - all the SMs had to da was make a few successful saves or throw a vehcile at me and I was stuffed (damn vehicles blowing up and killing my assaulting squad! happened everyy time!)

But after the armies I faced started to change the I3 didn't matter all that much... I was much better dropping the sig evo upgrade and spending the extra points on more Kroot... Stay in cover, fire and let them assault me! Even with Frag they're hitting at the same time and an extra +1I wouldn't have made much difference with Eldar anyway... the 10 extra kroot were better value.

If you take a melta on your MS, get a veneration charm - there's nothing more frustrating than missing with the ONLY melta in your army!!

I agree with you - I used to be a vultures only man - but Hounds All The Way I say! Just don't foget your ten snipers for 101 points!!

You are backing up everying I've found. It's good to know it's not me but the math of the stats.

I Do master Craft the Shaper too... It's better to have 2 shots in need. (Except when the guy takn shocks him... Oh! Instant hit?? Ooppss... )

I still like my Vultures, they are handy for a quick assault. And very occasionaly deep strikes tyo Rapid Fire 15 Bolters.

Always Snipers.... If I could have 2 I would. (Darn Eldar with limitless squads and there fancy +2 Save and Ap1) Who Bitter Me?

I'll still go initiative 4 but pack out the hounds. I think I'll take more joy from a win than being soft score compliant with these guys.

What are your feelings on the great Knarlocs with TW Guns... 300pt Squad with 3x St7 12 Attacks on Charge and no instant kill(Ex Dreads and tau guns) 6+ is still a killer I think...

Im planing on running 2 GK with the TL kroot guns in my force at some stage. Mainly since they arnt fearless then they can get below 50% and run away! so if you have 2 then they are always at 50% or dead! (use the same rule with broadside squads too) Also gotta remember they arnt Monsterous creatures so dont get full range on their guns when they move (Kroot gun is rapid fire) and cant shoot and assult in the same turn, though you do get 2 shots at 12" .

Im intending on using them as a Halfway house from Ox's and Hounds. They get the fleet and the good CC rending attacks as well as the extra longrange firepower that the kroot REALLY need in the early stages of the game. And if they enemy gets too close then its lunch time!!

Im with you on the 6+ save! should at least be a 5+, 4+ at best. But 6 is just hopeless!

My Thought was 3 of them infiltrating with the Special Character behind them making them fearless....
2nd Turn assault and no running.... St 6 Rend... Sounds good till you have to make 6+ Saves still!

The Great Knarlocks with explosive bolts have been my favourites and been very successful - they either cop all the fire and allow my Kroot to do some damage or they get ignored and 2 x Str 6 , blast marker assault 2 weapons account for alot of marines I've found!

Ive actualy been wondering about that. Uber might be able to fill me in on it. Can The GK infiltrate? I know the OX cant and i know the GK's have feild Craft. I just didnt think they could infiltrate.

I don't have a problem with your kroot Dallas , i enjoyed playing them at perdition!. You gave me the closest game i had all weekend, and might of had me were it not for some bad luck at an inopportune time . I'd be happy to take your kroot on with my death guard or iron warriors again

No they can't, unfortunately. 1) it doesn't say they can, 2) emailed FW & they said nope due to 1.

Dal...

The kroot are good, its your rolling man! I have lost to you on a few occasions, and dont forget so far you are undefeated against me and mark when we do the 1v1v1 FFA!

Thanks man...
Closest game really? <beats chest and gurnts alot>
If I had not fled my moast expensive and most useful unit off the table then it might of been different. (Sobs )
Hmmm... Guess I'll just have to double my efforts at building Kroot up for a place one day. (I hear laughter???)


Lightning has to strike though man, play enough games against someone and a Win will ome up!

This is true, but with 2 Alpha male marine equiv players slugging it out it's kind of easy to nibble at the Edges of the fight. But there is no way I'd get in the middle of that many bolters/Gauss.
That said, I bought new dice and I'll be burning my old ones in front of them as a warning!

DOn't my comments rate a reply... I'll have to be more meaningful next time....

Totally agree U should ignore any ideas of soft score requirements cause as both a Peer scorer AND a TO scorer I tend towards generosity when marking comp for Kroot and when marking peer it's a default 5/5 from me!

Agree the Great Knarloc requires a save better than 6+ - he's enough of a threat that I want to try to take him out as soon as I see him but with 6+ he's not even a good fire magnet - fire magnets are supposed to have a reasonable chance to take the shooting of an army and survive, your poor guy was down from my second salvo from memory...

Cr@p Cryx, Very sorry! I missed a whole last post off that page... Reading now...
(Damn work confusing me while I try and discuss Kroot)

Yeah My thing is to try and beat on impartial ground... But I know what you mean. I made kroot town for that reason, I should bring again....

I lean away from the Council but I get what you mean 8" in trees... I'm always better off using the "come and get me " tactic. Another good one is to sit on one side of deap trees so if they shoot at me they shoot from where I want and have baited...

Nah, No exceptions as to tables.. hehe I'd love one tree'd table a Tourny woudl be sweet. But it woudl actually swing it too far the Kroots way I believe. They've never lost in a trees only game there like marines on speed because veryone else is so slow. I'd pit them against hilly's bugs in that environment... (That is a challenge if he's up too hehe )

yeah, In the Gumby I played gumby. One of my Famous Migrains kicked in and I over estimated what the beast could do.... In that case I over estimated it thinking it woudl live at all!

And yeah, My krootish days of worrying about comp are over. Not enough toints V the handy caps inolved...

Sorry for late comment Alex...

Snifff.... Snifff... yes, It's true.. There were tears shed at the yet again "practice" victory feast, the remaining kroot mourned as they fired up the BBQ and ducked to the shops for a Dipping sauce that would go well with a 7 ton chicken and a side order of terminator shells.

No worries mate,. I figured you'd missed it...


Yeah, well a Forest table at Waucons should still be a possibility and we can let the draw take care of whether you see it or not...

Didn't realise you were in Migraine hell for the guimby - shows how well you did cause I didnt even suspect at the time...

I'll take the random, but now I have to live upto my words if I get it... lol

No Probs, I get enough migrains most time I've played a Tourny I've had one, just worse taht day from no sleep...
Side effect of my jobs hours and a head injury. Not in bed for days stuff, but wouldnt drive if I had the choice kind of pain. (It's the reason I say "oh, thats right sorry sorry" so often to my opponents... lol)

On happier topics, I have a suprise addition to my list for the next Cryx... More Kroot!

kroot are awesome... more variety is best

If anyone should loose points for comp its space marines for their unimaginative ...*grumble* *grumble* ... cheesy...*grumble* .. 3+ saves .. *grumble**grumble*

All this kroot Talk has got me fired up to take My Kroot back to Terracon! First and last tournament i took them to was A Teracon and now since ive reworked and remade almost the whole army i think its time to give them a Re-try for Teracon 2007

I'm thinking 2008 will be the year of the Kroot

Thats the spitit Turbo....


No No emergeo, Don't pay out on they space marines... They deserve our pitty...
Because they never have to consider half of what a Kroot(Or other) player has to think of.

I know as kroot player sharp sticks and under watered desert games bring havoc to my guys number, They drop like flies Impailed or thristy....
A marine just uses the starp stick as a toothpick and drinks his own urine.....




That it will be Trip, That it will be!!!!!

Were you a member of Kompletely Kroot (before the exodus) KoldKraysie?

If so - did you ever get a chance to look at the final version of the Kroot Kodex?

I was a member, And am not sure of the Exodus. My work blocked my access to all things "groups" so I did not get to look in much... And am never home??

Kroot Kodex,
Yeah, I had a brief look. I've pinned down my works net control so I'll have a re read sometime...
From memory the open topped Tau Busses were a fav... lol

so true... a lot less thought involved in 40k when your playing easy mode space marines

Out of curiosity..does anyone know if GW is planning to publish the kroot codex. I had a look through the pdf and I would love to come up with some fluff and an army list to combine the kroot with my eldar

With agreement Kroot can be teamed up with any army. (Apart from the obvious nids/necs plus others listed in the Chap App.) Like page 2, 2nd paragraph of the PDF. Off the top of my head.

I've never actually taken any other forces as allies for my kroot, but figure some combination with Guard would be rather nasty.... 3 Bassy, 4 las Cannon and 60 Kroot... Muhahahaha.....

I had plans of starting a petition for a new Kroot Dex/Chap App late last year. I fig'd it could'nt hurt.
But the realisation that GW have other core products beyond the Beaked boys stopped that plan.

Well Kompletely Kroot & the Shaper Council has run petition after petition to GW over the years, as well as pretty much test running many of the rules over and over again. Sometimes they'd reply...

We were even up to Kodex Kroot 4.2 (Sorry KoldK the bus got taken out!)... I used to head up the site, but after I finished 4.2 I had to hand it over as work was too busy! The last Master Shaper started a new site (more modern), but I've never been able to access it.

In honesty i didnt like alot of the new units that were added into the Kroot Kodex. Really i think all that "needs" to be fixed in order to get the kroot more up to scratch is.

Have the Ambush ability to be updated to the new Lictor assult (maybe more like the old but either way)

Have the Standard Kindred squad able to take Kroot Ox (insted of them in heavys) Change the booby traps to something more similar to what was done in Citys of death.

And then Make the Great Knalocs and Great Knaloc heards part of the main dex.

Maybe even give them their own Phyker powers to make it worth taking the shamen option

I do think alot of work went into the Codex that was writen. I just thought it was a little too strange IMO (abominations Gremlins and Big Game hunters for example)

Thanks Turbo, but I think you are refering to earlier versions of the Kodex... 4.2 stripped everything back to the bone. The only thing I didn't try to fix was the Knarlok Riders v/s the Trackers issue.

*Have the Ambush ability to be updated to the new Lictor assult (maybe more like the old but either way)
That's what happened in 4.2.

*Have the Standard Kindred squad able to take Kroot Ox (insted of them in heavys)
Bit of both in 4.2.

*And then Make the Great Knalocs and Great Knaloc heards part of the main dex.
Yup - that happened too in 4.2 - in fact even weapon knarlocks and herds became combined.

*Give them their own Phyker powers to make it worth taking the shamen option
Yeah I agree, but I couldn't get anyone to agree and the random ones alway iritated me! SO they became variations on abilities in other dexes in keeping with the Kroot feel.

*I just thought it was a little too strange IMO (abominations Gremlins and Big Game hunters for example)
They were really just added to give some elite choice flavour - not game winners by any stretch of the imagination... I certainly wouldn't use them if I was after a game winning option!

I'd just like the current basic kroot, with more S7 options and the option of a 4+ Save for Purchase.
Lose the Dummy Adaptions. Keep the initiative as an option.

Init 6 Sharmen would be cool, Maybe with like a Lure power and a Crozarius Equiv...

Here's one to throw and idea out I always liked...
I always figured the kroot to be cleaver not so much smart.
Kroot releasing Catachan toads before the battle. Like a kroot orbital Strike. 3 lesser toads released scattering evey turn. Giving that kroot and Catachans are the only ones who get an attack against them it would be no diff to an orbital to the opponent.