SEnt a email in as I thought I wont be able to use my Feral orks...Much to to my suprise Speed Freakers are also out as they are in Codex :Armageddon.I thouht the freakers being out sucked a bit but dem da rules..Just make sure that you take a legal list to GT.Least I found out early....

Btw wha the hell could i use a 14 inch long 5 inch wide 11inch tall squigoth as with the "counts as rule"

thought call it a warbuggy aka massive block los also massive cheatyness ...

Horde armys at tourneys are alwaysa right royal pain to move..... try moving 200+minis with 10 minutes a round..sheesh


Rant Finished

This is probably the least focussed post in the history of these forums

That's a bit harsh...it is a post about orks after all!

Interesting point about the formal illegality of ork varient lists though, not that I'm ever going to darken the doorstep of a GT, but...

I can't help but think that an event evidently focused on promoting the hobby, should be trying to push the boundary's of the gaming system.

Also note the 'Citadel models only" rule.

Hope you didn't want to run any drop pods. Kind of hard to fulfil this requirement when there isnt one.....Scratch built is still not Citadel.................

Yeah it seems harsh but no doubt comes from the latest push from GW to push "Available models" policy as well as the apparantly normal "Punish the fringe players who like the unusal lists" policy which has long seemed an abberrant feature. It's a wide spread hobby, with a majpor appeal factor it's inherent variety, it troubles me whenever it appears they lose sight of this important point.

I see no reason at all why a list that was balanced before shouldn't be allowed to continue for basically as long as players wish to use it or GW does a proper update.

I am immensely sad about Lost and the Damned, what am I supposed to do with my 80 mutants now? Field them as Warrior weapon Guard? Not quite the same feel...

If there were elements of Lost and the Damned they felt crossed the line trhen they should ban them - simple. If Spawnerator and WindofChaoserator peed them off, then simply dissallow more than 2 of euither poower in any LatD list at GTs...

AH well, a pity GW doesn't consult me on all it's worldwide policy decisions - I could give them a nice lop sided provincial view if they'd only let me try

ANyweay, we do have other tournaments that will allow such terribley aberrant (and normal) armies such as Speed Freeks, Feral Orks, LatD, Armoured Company, and so forth. Long may they continue and my hope is for a Sydney Komplete Fanatic in the future that would allow such things, as well as possibly using the awesome Armageddon supplement coming to our shores later this year.

The reasoning behind no feral orks etc seemed perfectly logical and fair to me. Lord knows its been discussed to death enough on these forums, no real need to go over it again I feel

One thing that's not terribly clear from the player pack though - what about Chapter Approved units that are part of an ok list? Specifically, I am thinking of the Deathwatch and Zealot units...have emailed the GT guys, but no answer as yet.

They are very anal lately. You can't even have conversions using LoTR bitz as it contravenes some rule, even though they sell the damn game!

I think that this has been around for a while and is to do with the licensing arrangements that GW have to produce the game. I think?

Yes, there was a licensing problem with using LotR minis/conversions in other (Official) GW games...

AFAIK that has now passed and you are actually free to use the LotR Models as you desire, but worth checking beforehand.

There is a very long and winding reason why this misconception continues to flourish...

and that's mainly by people within the organisation refering to directions or directives that no longer exist...

The main source of confusion comes in that Golden Deamon has specific entry conditions which prohibit entries into the competition from mixing Lord of the Rings parts with Warhammer or Warhammer 40,000 miniatures in any and all of the categories.

As models could potentially be photographed and may appear in White Dwarf or the GW Website it could be seen as a breach of licencing to show figures which mix the backgrounds.

However, Grand Tournament is not Golden Deamon, so different rules apply!

If you read the Players packs for this year's Grand Tournaments regarding restrictions on what you can include as far as models (page 3 addresses the issue):

Non-Citadel miniatures are not permitted
in the tournament and will be removed
in the same way as unpainted miniatures.
The Army must be WYSIWYG, or ‘what
you see is what you get’. This means that
weapons, armour options and upgrades
chosen from the army list must be shown
on characters and on the majority of the
models in a unit or squad.

Conversions must begin as Citadel
miniatures and contain a majority of Citadel
components. All other models will be
removed from the table. They must be of
the appropriate type for the troops they represent
or comply with the Counts’ as rule
(see Appendix II).

No where in the Players pack does it suggest or imply that Lord of the Rings Parts can't be used on a players models as part of a conversion.

You may find that there may be difficulty getting photographs of your army in a White Dwarf Article if loads of parts are sourced from LOTR models and it's meant to be Warhammer or 40K!

So Rules as written - do what you want, cut and convert what you want, it may not appear in White Dwarf or on the GW Website...as long as it meets the rules in the Players Pack (have a look at the counts as rule which may apply to extensive or dramatic conversions) then it is OK to field at this year's Grand Tournament.

If someone challenges you on it...show them the rules pack and ask them to show you where it says you can't.

Good Luck.

Yep, the no Lord of the Rings bits is New Line Pictures doing, not GW's.

The Lord of the Rings IP is a closely guarded thing and they want to avoid having it interminglign with anything else.

I think that with conversions tho, what is allowable on the day will probably be more lenient than what they have to have in writing for legal purposes.

I have read that tourney pack and somethign came to mind. Well 2 things but they are related.

First of all FW isn't allowed and that made me a sad panda.

My real question once I built a bridge over that is, can FW models be used as proxy for codex entries? (I am forking out for 2 land speeder tempests and would like to use them as AC/HB tornados as I don't really want to buy 2 tornados just for the GT.) Anyone know the official party line on this?

By the strict rules of the player pack, no they can't.

Also, I confirmed today - you cannot use any list or unit not included explicitly in the list in the player pack - nothing from Chapter Approved except Blood Angels. So, no Ork Klans, no Zealots, no Deathwatch, no Creature Feature, no Armoured Company.

Lol thank you Andrew for confirming basically what I had thought. I may not have been 100% clear on the details but nice to hear my thought that you can legitametely use LotR figs in a GT has been vindicated, after all I had read the players pack in coming up with that opinion, thanks.

Interesting to note the very next post appeared to have ignored your point entirely! At least I read it as saying the ban still applied, but was due to Newline! lol, not quite! Oh well, whats one of the principle GT Designer's opinion really worth anyway? lol

Excellent, my ideas for using some LotR models/componentry will now come to the fore.

Bit of necromancy there eh?

Just a thought if Andrew or anyone else reads this: perhaps when writing these rules in the future give consideration to a) Forgeworld models and b ) models that are scratch built or of similar origin. My assumption is that what GW want to enforce is people not using miniatures from competing companies, which I dont think anyone will argue with, but at the same time someone who makes an ork trukk out of a toy car and a hundred orky bits shouldnt be penalised (especially since many GW staffers do it )

suh-weet... goblin big boss on shelob is full steam ahead!

"First of all FW isn't allowed and that made me a sad panda.

My real question once I built a bridge over that is, can FW models be used as proxy for codex entries? (I am forking out for 2 land speeder tempests and would like to use them as AC/HB tornados as I don't really want to buy 2 tornados just for the GT.) Anyone know the official party line on this?"


Hi DarkHorse

Players wishing to field Forgeworld models of an appropriate size using the "counts as" rule will find that it is entirely acceptable within the rules - they are at there core conversions based upon citadel miniatures - most which will get a run at a GT using available lists will be upgrades and include plastic components from a citadel kit.

So Tempests counting as Tornados, Leman Russ optional turrets still counting as battle cannons, Squigoths counting as Battle Wagons, etc are all welcome at GT.

Hope that helps with anyone trying to settle on their list for the Melbourne GT or who wish to grab a ticket and join us next weekend.

Cheers
Andrew

So you cannot use unpainted models ,?? well with all due respect, at GT's all around many unpainted models are used (if not whole unpainted armies) and NOT REMOVED. Prehaps you should enforce you own rules. Not that it matters to most of us.
Prehaps it's not clearly written in the rules pack, but you would know all about the well written and thought out RULES PACK for 2007.

Intresting quote,Even thought i have used a chaos mammoth in a GT, Why do they not allow forgeworld models in fantasy GTs, even thought they are owned by the GW company (i am sure someone will let me know if i have quoted wrong on this).



Or does this also come under the "unpainted models/armies will be removed from the table rules" that nasher has quoted above. he is right the player pack does need a LOT of work done to it, maybe asking the players themselves what tey want in a GT might help.

Actually, I'll go out on a limb here- One thing GW Oz do do well is take feedback.


See new thread.


They generally request feedback for every GT, and Im sure they get swamped.

I think next year could be brilliant if we try and support GW in devising what happens next year.

With all due respect, players have been giving feedback and info about what they want etc. and still they bring out a player pack that is confusing and "unfair", are you suggesting that the feedback they have got in the last few years has made the recent players pack?