Interesting that SW characters and DE characters, and anyone else with a "retinue", cannot be singled out by attackers in assault (p47-49). They are an upgrade character, and a part of the unit until it dies.

Go away force weapons, hit the other guy in my squad please.
I wonder if that makes a shadow field less important for an Archon...

All the newer codex books have done away with retinues, haven't they?

Had this come up in group discussions with the lads yesterday.

I ran Zogwort on the weekend and turned a Broodlord into a Squig....turns out that a couple of days later, one of the lads said i shouldn't of been able to target him as the Broodlord had a retinue.

But by then....i'd already had my fun.

Dont worry Riddler, i would say you were correct in how you played it. Zogwort's Curse ability say target any Indepentant Character in line of sight. so would say it is different from usuall targeting rules.

As for the first post, If the character has the I C rule then they fight as a seperate entity in melee anyways, so no using the unit to hide in there either.

Currently the "retinue" rule i would say covers sargents and certain character upgrades to squads. eg Snikrot, Talion, ect

AFAIK, any model with the IC special rule is still an IC in assault - they just can't leave a retinue while it's alive.

Nothing's changed in that regard, really.

Unless someone can pull a rules quote?

Nah, they changed this one massively. You were right ryland, you couldn't target the broodlord at all until you killed all his mates.

The rules quote is: "Retinues: Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game."

And yeah, it makes dark eldar lords slightly less reliant on shadow fields, and makes a walking cannoness with bodyguard a slightly more viable option. Also grey knight masters became better.

Nope, you're right Harvey.

"Independent Characters and Assaults... When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit..." Pg49.

Yes, but CF's post indicates that the dudes (Broodlord/Archon/Canoness) are not Independant Characters until their unit is killed, until then they count as Upgrade characters like sergeants or heavy weapon troopers.
So no targetting Broodlords with anything (other than the new torrent of fire) until the brood is dead. Nice.

Correct Scott and Antony...they actually lose their IC status until the retinue is killed.

Tricksy 'Nids......was fun squigifying a Broodlord though

This one surprised me when I was playing apoc last week. SW vs my Tzeench Chaos.

There were a lot of retinues of wolfguard surrounding his ICs, and when I checked his claim that they couldn't be singled out, he was absolutely right.

I rolled dice against the whole squad, and he could choose to take saves on the characters, as per the usual damage allocation system.

Maybe it's a small boost to the older 'codecies'.

It does ruin the old IG retinue trick I used, with 4x guardsmen screening the commander, with the commissar directly behind him.

If it worked out right, both the IC's couldn't be targeted as they were not in base contact, so assuming unit got nerfed and commander passes Ld, the unit then consolidates into commander, with commissar out of reach. Repeat next turn with commissar out of assault. At least I think it worked out that way...

So yeah retinues are not always a benefit

Ahhhh - thank you lads. Surprising, but true enough.

Not a bad IG tactic under 4th - pity about that pile in when charged thing you cop now....

Would have only given you two turns of it in 4th ed, as your commissar and commander would have had to join the combat for the second phase. Now you don't even get one phase of stalling out of it. But thats ok because you want your dudes to fold in a single assault phase now anyway.

ahh but gift of chaos or boon can target specific men

Yeah the rule book deals with this issue pretty clearly as Chaplain_Fortis mentioned.

Also I've been running my Archon with a shadowfield as an IC and my Dracon with almost no wargear and a retinue of Incubi. Works a treat as they all have a 3+ save which kicks her 5+'s ass

Unless you take the Independent Commissars doctrine, your Commissar isn't an independent character anyway.

Yeah retinues are now quite good except the 2KP idea. (3-4 if you have a champion and/or vehicle)

The IC rule is for when an IC and a unit charge in.. Say my Archon and a squad of wyches, thne you have to assign and they attack and recieve attacks separately. Also makes the drazzar from DE a little stronger as even he is untouchable until the unit is dead.

Other than bolt of change, talos and the sniper assassin who can kill a broodlord (or any character) within a retinue?? This makes the GStealer army a little more viable. (Note: Kill not target. The BoC and Assassin can target, but the talos can still kill. But it would take 2-3 turns and lots of luck.)

BoChange - target a single model.
Talos- wildfire - any hits strike the nearest model (over-rides the assign wounds in the rulebook) Had fun with this as a talos killed the lascannon guys in 2 squads first turn, very lucky rolls and they were the closest two models.
Assassin - Calidus?? - can target a single model in a unit.

Eugenic Lore

But he does count as a separate unit to the commander, and is out of the killzone (unless I remember incorrectly from 4th...)

Hey Archon Eugenic,
I don't think bolt of change does that.

Under 5th ed, if the Commisar is NOT independant, then he is simple a part of the unit. There are no Kill Zones in 5th ed.

The only things that I can think of (quickly, off the top of my head) is a Farseer with Mind War, and Old Zogwort. His rule specifically states taht you pick a model. I would take it that this independent character/retinue means that the character acts like a heavy weapons guy as part of the squad. Hence, these powers are used to kill exactly these kind of people, and as such should be able to target independent characters that are part of a unit.

MOTR

No, Zogworts curse states you may pick any 'IC in LOS', not 'any model', and as already stated, an IC in a retinue is no longer an IC.

Oh, and Riddler, I want my Broodlord back! sneaky bugger

This rule about IC's being upgrade characters to retinues is part of a boxed section, reserved simply for and titled
'IC's joining and leaving units'.

It is only intended to mean they cannot join or leave this retinue unit freely until the retinue is destroyed for the purposes of the movement phase.

They still function as IC's in combats, on the facing page of the rulebook, 'IC's & assaults'.

This stands to reason, surely.

And the concept of both the IC and retinue being worth a kill point each leads credence to this I would think.

Read the section titled "retinues" more carefully. It states, "the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character"

So, as long as his retinue is still alive, he ISN'T an independent character.

The section titled "independent characters & assaults" relates to IC's who have joined another unit during the game, not IC's in retinues.

Makes retinue's quite handy, my broodlord needs a larger one I reckon

As the broodlord is an upgrade character and thus not a IC; does its retinue retain the ability to assault after running due to the fleet rule?

Thats a very good question. I'd love to say yes it can assualt after running, but I think every model in the unit has to have fleet to benefit from it. Shame really, afterall what is a broodlord but an oversized stealer. Seems funny that something so athletic (mega high initiative of 7) cant fleet, yet if you include Shrike in a SM army, all of a sudden big bulky terminator's can fleet. Weird.

Ok.. Since some of this has been argued I will add some points...

IC with retinue => such as a drachon with incubi... or broodlord with stealers
The limits of any single model apply to the entire squad.. broodlord and incubi mean no fleet.. Even the 12" charge of a DE lord (by drugs) cannot be used..
Advantage is the IC cannot be targetted in combat.

IC with unit => archon added to wyches or broodlord in a non-retinue stealer unit..
For all movement the same rules apply, the only way the archon can move 12" assault is if the wyches have it too and the stealers loose their Fleet.
Here the IC can be targetted in combat.


An example of both in one unit.
Archon joins a drachon with retinue.
The entire unit is limited to the speed of the incubi.
But in combat the archon can be targetted for attacks while the drachon cannot.

Eugenic Lore

But fleet says "A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run"

The rules state that the unit loses the special rule only if an IC joins them and they dont have the special rule.

Nowhere does it state that every model has to have fleet to use it.

Eugene, the 12" charge of a DE lord (by drugs) cannot be used in a retinue of incubi cannot be used because of another rule that says the unit moves at the speed of the slowest model so your comparison in this case is slightly faulty.

FWIW I dont believe this is the intent of the broodlord; but hey its just a game (Im weird in that I believe that in 40K you have to apply common sense whilst using RAW to illustrate my point)

I do understand what you are saying and i only posted after reading the section carefully.

My point is that it is in the movement section there.

It doesn't mention anything about IC's, retinues in combat specifically. I feel that is because of the rules relating to ICs after that.

The point since 4th and 5th ed has been to not have IC's hiding in the back with uber weapoos of doom and being untouched. I don't believe the retinue rules are supposed to undermine that philosophy of characters being the first to get stuck in, by stating that these type of units 'hide' these characters.

The point of it saying it doesn't count as an IC i think is simply for the purposes of deploying/moving the IC and not attaching or detaching him to separate units until the retinue is destroyed. (My original and somewhat overlooked point)

Aeon you may be on to something there. The Fleet rule states that the unit may assault after running, with the little * symbol indicating that this rule is lost if joined by an IC without fleet, and as the broodlord isnt an IC in the retinue, they might be able to fleet. Hmmm, interesting.

I see what you're saying. Even if this was the intent, it just doesn't read that way from my my point of view.

Seems to me that there are two types of character: Upgrade, and IC.
An IC with a retinue becomes and upgrade character, like a sergeant, until the retinue is dead.

I think it's in that box about movement because the character can't move away from the unit, so the IC rules above do not apply. The character is a squad member. There may be greater implications, ie that none of the IC rules will apply to a character with a retinue, whatever they may be. I'm sure they'll crop up...

Oh, just noticed: Like blackwolf's last post there. Interesting. Seems like a deliberate change to me.

Edit: Does the Emperor's Champion challenge ICs only? I think so, but haven't checked.