so...
who do we have from WSWA going and what are we all bringing?
i know i will be bringing the old weak as P!ss kantor and his scaredy croneys =D
also how are the rest of u planning to get there? as i may be in need of a lift....

I'm in....i'm taking the Daemons. I like the randomness, it's more random than Orks, i like wearing a shooting phase so that only 3 Bloodletters remain and they go on to tear you a new one. I like it when my Keeper bails out of combat and charges your important stuff the best part of 2 feet away. I like when my Flamers gamble and score a hit on the scatter and completely wipe out 400pt units in turn 1. I actually like it when the only icon i have in my army doesn't turn up until turn 5. I like interesting and fun things and i like smashing Meq....the Daemons are for me.

I don't think Whitey is in on this gig so i'll probably be moseying in from the West on me jack jones. Brodders, if you and Golden are completely stuck, we'll get you there mate so cool your jets homes.

I refuse to post what i'm taking as i prefer to let the plebs stew. I have no interest in comp so i don't care what "you" think it's worth you sneaky little lurkers you If i only face SM's all weekend i'll probably go alright, Orks, Nids and gunline will give me uber trouble. As always, just have a modest objective of finishing top half...sports usually falls into my lap so i must be a cool guy to play Although i've had the "gamey" label tagged on me again as recently as this week.

Tomsey: "Where's the Chicken Klaw Dance? You can smell the win can't 'ya?"

hahaha, had to invent a new Hellblade dance on the spot which rocked the socks and covered for my gamey tactical genius as i smashed the broken twin-lash..... Not sure if i rock that dance at MilF though, opponents might not get it

Yeah, best not to rock out that dance at MiF, looked kinda gay.

Well, I'm rocking out the deathguard of uber-doom for MiF. The list has changed since I faced you Brodders, in a game that has become known as the "Ultra-cursed dice of stupid f*ckery" in my brain.
New list has done alright, popping Toby's double 'lith list with ease, and walking away from Raihan's all Khorne Daemon power weapon-fest list with a win.
Double the daemon princes = double the pleasure!

Well of course the Sith Lord Darth Hickey will be there with his Slaaneshi Goodness, Jabba the Fotheringham will be taking the expertly painted Banana Boys (looking for the soft scores) and of course the Sith Lords apprentice Darth Eaton will be there with the soft and squishy Imperial Guard (Sith Lord shakes his head in disgust )
Im determined to make the guard work, and of course Ben Loves the Guard, so maybe my scores will improve

Matty E

Eldar. Most Mech. Eldrad counts as. No MCs. Basically another pick and mix eldar list but for the first time ever, rocking 2 squads of DAs, with bladestorm and 1 defend. Not yet played with the list but BBDave gave it a go and it seemed to play ok. Caters for my playstyle and should grant options versus a variety of opponents. Only really horde armies that will really give me limited tactical options.

Well, my list has already been rejected. Not sure I want to tone it down, will consider withdrawing....

WTF!! The list is hard but not that hard. its not unbeatable at all. Its a one trick pony which relies on ALL things working at once. One of the wheels falls off and say goodbye to mr hickey's army. So this list is too hardcore but the Kroot Merc FANDEX is allowed. I'll be damned

It would be a shame to withdraw Cam. It's a nicely painted force! I assume you'd be in if you dropped to a single lash. Whether that makes it harder / softer or whatever is a point of debate, but the twin lash attracts attention.

Maybe just serve up some more dakka with a vindi or pred or something?

Well if that IA broken deathwind/stormwind thing is allowed i'd file a grievance.

Having pwned your list comfortably on the weekend, just after you had your tail handed to you even more easily by Rohan's Eldar list i'm failing to see the hype of this so called broken combo. Obviously, it's reputation goes before it.

That was my first go against it, but i've observed your games at the WSWA whilst using it. It's all mouth and no trousers imo.....we're discussing it's merits on our email traffic right now. I wonder how many of the forum sheep who have a cow over it (excuse farmyard references) have any experience of playing against it at all but just repeat the myth of how broken it is because, again, "it always rains in manchester". I mean, when have these experts played against it because outside of you, i'm yet to see it fielded at a tourney and i'm sure it's not being used in their purist, fluffy social games.....

Daemons pwn your one trick pony. Runes of Warding and equivalent completely nerf you.

Your results in the recent Geelong tourney speak volumes over the ignorance of this build. What did you finish, 11 out of 15??? and still picked up the Cheesemonger award.....do the all knowing interwebz 40k experts realise how absolutely freakin' retarded that is?!

What a joke....

After observing the current trends in what is deemed a hard comp option for any army, i have to say that the twin-lash powers are judged too harshly.

Every game that i have played against an EC army, with one or two lashes in it, seems to be completely dependent on the lash working successfully. Even when the codex was just released and everyone was crying foul about the possibility, anyone that played it realised that it's not as scary as it might seem. I can understand how painful it is to have your most expensive unit laid out in the open and then obliterated, but that's why you need to use a strategy.

If there was an opportunity to appeal to have the list re-examined i would try. It doesn't seem right to have the EC rejected.

Just change a prince to a warptime prince instead Cam, It'll probably make the army harder and also more easily accepted by ben and the players.

Also, you guys suck, and will lose.

Doesn't happen often but lol @ Fortis.

bloody invaders.

Any of you guys want to guess at many extra sisters of battle i've managed to squeeze into my Vulkan MIF list?

Y'see thats totally bonkers and exactly whats wrong with the ruling/fuss about Twin Lash. Those changes *would* make the army harder and then it probably get's accepted!! Madness.....



Irrelevance. The Sun rises in the East, sets in the West, and Chappy Fortis finishes bottom third as per.

If you play me, i will skull you on comp for playing an illegal list regardless of TO ruling....and regardless of me pwning you.

I will run my list without alteration and see how the dice fall. Perhaps my entertaining nature and the fact that I know the rules and do not surf or cheat might help with the soft scores

So the list is permitted now?

List is permitted. Have been advised that I am likely to score low in comp (TO or players, not sure). I'd rather have fun playing what I want to play, than bow to pressure from fanboyz.

It's good to hear. If TOs have faith in the comp system, they shouldn't have to veto army lists.

Sure, you'll cop the 'double tap' but you'll still be smiling i'm sure!

Ok since theres a bloody thread about it, and the age of reality TV means everyone wants to make everything public, I'll share my thoughts in response.

A) I have faith in my comp system. Cam knows as well as anyone how punishing it can be, he, Rohan and Matt finished 1,2 and 3 bottom comp last year, and I think finished in the bottom half (Matt picked up the best general trophy too).

My request was to change A) either one prince, or one oblit pair. Twin lash mixed with template weapons is THE bad comp combo of 5th Ed (so far). Whether this is perception or real is a moot point. Six players will have to play against that list, and whether theres truth in it or not, they will have the suspicion, if they lose, that they were beaten by the cheese, rather than the general. And, if they lose, they will probably feel sh!te about it for a while. I dont forget that my players are paying customers, theyre paying me to have a good time. One bad army can take that away, and this by reputation alone, has the capacity to do that.

C) Ive used a single lash before and oblits, and had to stop I felt so dirty for doing it.

D) Player comp is 20% of the overall mark. Whether the combo is good or not, the perception is that its game breaking, and this essentially means that Cam has no chance in the tournament overall (as, if expected, his list is marked harshly). I made the recommendation as much for his benefit (ie wanting him to do well), though knowing full well that he'd ignore me. Hence why Ive let it through.

Hope that explains the myriad of factors that led me to ask Cam to think about his list again. His reply gave me food for thought, and hopefully next year he paints something other than the cheeze

PS Matt, I think you vastly overrate the effectiveness of the Kroot codex.

Cheers,

Ben

I second the "urge" to have alook at the Kroot dex again. Not alot is really outstanding, but when you look a bit closer at the sarg equiv, the infiltrate/scout abilities and T5 or multi wound options, I would reconsider it.

And if you pass back this way again Ben, If you have ill feelings about duel lash, have a look at sister+vulcan. cant tell me thats any better

Have to agree with BBDave there. The Vulkan + Sisters combo has been discussed to death on WAU for its legality issues, with many people dead against it. I can't see how 2 lash prince's (which is perfectly legal in the codex) is any worse than the Vukan + Sisters combo (which is a grey area). Comp wise, if I were to face that list, it'll cop a hit
I also faced that Kroot Merc list at Arc, and didn't enjoy it too much. Fan codices are fine, but when I'm paying moneys to play in a tourney, I'd like to know that I'd only be facing GW official dexes. As BBDave pointed out, it may seem to be a balanced codex, but there's some broken stuff in there. Especially the scout unit that gets - Scout, Infiltrate, Fleet, ignores cover for movement purposes, and has a 12" charge. There is no possible way to stop them getting off a first turn charge. Add the fact they can pack power fist equivelants, that gives you a nasty (and broken) unit. I got hit by 2 of these units at Arc, it wasnt fun.
As you said earlier, your players are paying customers, and you want them to have fun. Those 2 lists are just as annoying to play as the twin lash list. I wouldn't have too much fun playing those 2 lists.... But, I know, thats the risk I'm taking entering this tourney.

On a side note, I've been looking forward to playing this tourney since I came along and visited last years GiF, looked like you ran a great tournament Cant wait

Cheers.

Umm... That WAS the official GW dex you faced......

Sorry, didnt know I could I buy a Kroot codex. Care to show me on which shelf in a GW store I can find one?

And which Kroot Merc dex will you be using at Mif? The "official" one, or the one you created?

I think I have figured out how the Imperium will conquer the universe.

First have peer group pressure ban Chaos Marines.
Then have them ban Boy Spam (orks) - too many to kill = cheesy
Then have them ban Nids (see orks)
Then ban Eldar. Psychic dominance of the game + T8 Wraithlords.....

Eventually there will be nothing but Marines and Guard left

T8 Wraithlords... Your theory had humorous credibility until you insinuated that the aforementioned eldar unit was any good.

Ive looked at it quite a bit now, and i still think you have the ability to make a messed up list. I would have thought id be one of the people who could do that very quickly . Tim may not run those sort of combos but all i see is the potential to have 18 Str 5 Toughness 5 Wounds 5 creatures, or over 100 kroot charging in turn one with some of them having re-rolls etc. Done properly everyunit the oponant has is engaged in combat turn one.
People keep looking at a turn one charge as a one on one thing. I would hit multiple units if given the chance. And you dont always have to go for that play any way. Only idiots would always go for the turn one charge.
If i got to go first id tell my opponant, im done you set up because im infiltrating, then dependant on how they deployed would decide wheather or not i set up normally or actually go for the first turn charge. Hey it could go wrong but if your in there turn one against shooty armies game over in my opinion.

Just like the Catachan Codex AND Blood angel codex. It was one you could download from the Games Workshop website.

You cant walk in and buy either of those rule books, however they are both legal

But since Ive been allowed to run the KK dex, ill be running that for Mif.



Im glad someone else noticed

You guys are actually comparing Vulkan+Sisters to twin lash 9 oblits? Really? REALLY?

Yes they are.
One is codex legal, the other is dubious.
And 9 oblits doesnt work, R@ proved that years ago....although it might have been the user....

R@ really failed with 9 oblits and twin lash? Damn...

I still don't get why anyone would think it's a dubious point? And I was more talking about the heinousness level.

Stories of my evilness are greatly exaggerated. Its only 4 oblits and 2 lash's. So I guess it really isn't that bad

Indeed Chappy. Not because of the power level, but because of the legality of the list. There are many who do not believe it is legal, me included. I'm using it as an example of lists people might not like to face, in defence of Cam's lash list. If Cam's list is singled out due to the "fun factor" for the opponent, then there will be opponents who wont have much of a "fun factor" against the Vulkan + sisters combo, or the Kroot Merc List. Personally, I'm not worried by a Vulkan + sisters list, as I run a Deathguard army, but certain lists would be terrified of it, like a certain beardy little hive fleets list

you might have missed my last sermon on the issue Matt.

Vulcan gives all flamers twin linked (among other things) so they get to re-roll to wound vs your plaguemarines.

now at 1500 points the amry may contain up to 4 Sister units (2 troop units 2 flamers + combiflamer each, 1 FA dominon squad 4 flamers + combiflamer, elite celestian squad with heavy flamer, flamer and combi flamer. add repressor tank to all these units.)
so lets say 1 sister unit drives up and flames one of your plaguemarine units.
what would be an avg number of models covered by each flamer template? say 6 each?
the use divine guidence (sister power) gives "rending an all attacks" (equiv)
they roll to wound with 18 flamer shots. needing 5+ get 6 wounds, half are rends (ap1), reroll the remaining 12, getting another 4 wounds (half rend).
So were up to 10 wounds, half of which you dont get a save against.
the other 7 sisters shot with bolters, all rapid fire. 14 shots, hit with say 9. wound with 3.
so up to 13 wounds on your squad, half with no save or feel no pain.

it would be worse with the dominion squad.

now im not saying that sisters are broken, im not saying Vulcan is broken. But you cant tell me that adding both those together is any worse than double lash chaos.

Ahhh, didnt realise that BBDave. Thanks. So yep, thats definately a broken combo, and something that would sap the fun factor out of a game if I faced em.
And yet Cam was singled out for twin lash?
Maybe we're seeing the anti-WSWA bias at work

i think there would be less wswa bias if people didnt keep accusing people of doing it

the grave that Cam has dug for himself wasnt done over night, neither was Matts or any other player that has a bad rap. (sry Cam and Matt )

But once you have that tag of being "beardy/cheese/filth monger/broken combo breaker/sheep fondler/ect" its not easily shaken. People will remeber "that army" "that guy" took. Even if they wernt at the event, rumours will travel and reputations (for good or bad) will linger.

For all the talk of only judging someone on the merits of the game you just played, If you knew the guy you just played was thrown out of a tournament for cheating, it will have an effect of the way you score the game. wether people admit to it or not is another issue.

Yeah but, but, but, it's SOFT, and it's DIFFERENT, and it would be much HARDER if he took Termies with Thunderhammers and Ironclads like everyone else!!!

Done to death and not the issue. The issue for me is much the same as Matt's. Complete greyarea with extreme grey wording in the SM 'dex. Sisters have their own 'Dex, you wanna take 'em? use it and don't cherry pick the good stoof from other 'Dex's. If the TO has approved it then he obviously sees the other side of the fence (maybe black to my white) but if i come up against it....even if it's run by a General Spazzo, then this peer will give it the hit it deserves....same for the Kroot 'Dex, pesky hollow boned trash eaters. S4?? Stronger than Orks? Rubbish fluff.....Tim, Kroot are "Supposed" to be crap....adjust the codex accordingly and make it so.

5 for the Twin Lash list, something different rarely seen Scored the Yriel, 2 Softlord, Wraithguard and Avatar list high at Arc also (Legal too ). SO pleased to not face Bladestorm spam again

Ry, Kroot at strength 4 in the official Tau dex. This one isn't Tim's problem.

Tim. I like the variety but the issue I have with this fan dexes showing at tournies is that we are often on the clock to get a game started and finished. I have no intention of reading and comprehending the dex fully just on the off chance I am drawn to face the 1 list that is showing at MiF. Hence at the start of the game I expect we'd need 15 or more minutes just to do chapter and verse on the various units and abilities.

Also, from the game I saw at Arc, the models could be usefully differentiated more. It's confusing enough to play against a new dex, whether that's an official one or not, but if I recall correctly, the 'cavalry' don't really look too dissimilar to normal Kroot.

Regarding Vulkan + Sisters. Well its been done to death. It's not hidden cheese. It's not even subtle. Its blatantly matching a special rule with as many units that benefit from that special rule as possible. Its like me running an all scout RG force and running it all in with a first turn charge. It's dirty. But this combo doesn't stop there. It adds the sister's 'flavour' with divine guidance... Sure wheel it out as interesting and new/unique but don't expect to get many friends with the list and don't under any circumstances try and take the high ground over a list like Cam's. The Vulkan/Sister's list has huge potential. Anecdotal 'evidence' suggesting otherwise is really not going to work to gloss over this one.

Twin lash? It's hard. Not unbeatable as others have proven. It is however a list that along with others like it, guarantees the community will insist on comp as a component to tournies in Australia for a good while to come.

He's missed a golden opportunity to re-dress Gee Dub's error......

He's read his codex mate!