Hi guys, I'm sure this has been covered in another thread so sorry for bringing it up again but I don't have the time to troll through hundreds of threads.

I have played skimmers hovering over terrain can see any thing behind the same level terrain. ie hovering over lvl2 can see over lvl2 but not lvl3. Thus hovering over lvl 3 terrain means I can see over other lvl3 terrain which makes a hammerhead able to hover over lvl3 terrain and shoot at anything in range that is hiding behind terrain (but not those greater thatn 6" into terrain). This has been discussed with red shirts and on all occassionsd agreed with.

However I played a game and when I discussed this with my opponent we came to the conclusion that this is wrong. Why? The maximum height of terrain on the table is lvl3 and no where does it say a skimmer can see over lvl 3 terrain. pg 21 "A model's LOS can be improved by being on an elevated position...... so it can count the height of the terrain piece it stands on for LOS in regards of other area terrain." Thus you are considered to be as high as lvl 3 terrain if you are standing on lvl 3 terrain for LOS purposes, both seeing and being seen and therefore can see over lvl2 terrain but not lvl 3. Pg 61 states "Skimmers ignore terrain altogether.... and can even end their move hovering over diffifcult or impassable terrain. Conversely skimmers never count as obsured target beneftis from terrain they are hovering over....".

Therefore skimmers count as being at lvl 3 terrain even when hovering over lvl 3 terrain and can see over lvl2 terrain just like models standing ON lvl3 terrain. What they can't do is see over lvl3 terrain! :-(

Did we miss something in the rule book with regard to this conclusion and have I been lead astray by the vaunted comprehensive authority of the red shirts?? If so I need to apologise to quite a few opponents who have lost heaps of vechiles and units to my long range hammerhead!! :shock:

You are correct. As stupid as it sounds, a model is the same height as the terrain it's on. You don't add the two sizes together, though one would think that makes more sense.

So in your example, a Land Speeder sitting on a size 3 piece of terrain still can't see over other size 3 terrain or over other vehicles.

As far as I know though, you still need a physical line of sight ie you still need to be able to physically see the target model from the shooter.

So whats the point since all vehicles are level 3 anyway

(although I did see an Iron Warriors player tell his opponent that his Defilers were all Level 4 so he can see over anything; must be an Iron Warriors special rule because I asked him where it said that and he said it was written in a White Dwarf somewhere; also something about Obliterators being troops and he would love to show me but he left the article at home )

level 3 terrain still blocks line of sight of vehicles, so hovering above that terrain means that that specific piece of terrain doesnt block your line of sight.

Its just to get a better firing position in a spot where you otherwise wouldnt be able to shoot through.

The bits that get me though, are skimmers that hover above terrain dont take terrain checks to see if they are immobilised unlike more conventional vehicles.. however there is no section in the book that I can find that doesnt say a transport skimmer hovering above terrain cant deploy its troops inside that terrain piece.

Its even gotten to the point where I've seen people try to deploy troops inside destroyed buildings that dont have a roof... SAS firewarriors huh?

I think skimmers should be taken out of the game altogether

Why not? I'd say that was perfectly in line with the advantages that skimmers are supposed to have. They obviously couldn't deploy troops into impassable terrain, but there is nothing stopping them doing it into difficult terrain. Ordinary vehicles can as well, they just need to take a dangerous terrain test if the terrain isn't impassable to them.

The way we play it around here is that a skimmer hovering over terrain can see anywhere, but can also be seen by everything, making for a very short-lived flight is not done carefully...

RoV

look i'm not saying that its bad, As I am playing eldar at the moment and have at 1 point taken advantage of it (used my falcon to deploy the reapers into cover that I didnt have) but there are some pieces of terrain that it wouldnt look like you can deploy into, and there are no allowances in the rules to state that you cant.

This is then obviously open to abuse and people start claiming cheese.

I've even had people start crying the C word when I've had vypers hover above terrain to get a nice brightlance shot into big armour vehicles... (thats another story tho)


Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now

You'll note on page 20 there is a passage about taking an actual, models eye line of sight from shooter to target.

"The only time you don't use this method is when you want to draw a line of sight into or past area terrain... or an ongoing assault combat."

Make of that what you will.

Charles - that was what I was getting at before, no matter what the respective heights of the models, you still need to be able to draw a physical line of sight to shoot. Its an improtant bit to remember.

I'm with Charles and Ophion now that I think of it. It's so much easier if you just do it that way. If you can draw a line of sight to them then sure.

The only thing that makes the page 20 quote a bit iffy is the page 6 ruling that

"A model is considered to occupy the entire area of it's base"

Which can make drawing LOS past monstrous creatures a bit of a hassle. Can you shoot between the legs of a wraithlord? Personally, I'd say no. But then you get hassles with things like Falcons, which have bases but are much larger than the base. Can you draw LOS to the body of the vehicle? Or do you need to see the base?

Basically, the "entire area of it's base" ruling contradicts the "true LOS" ruling. When they contradict, which one do we adhere to?

I always go by true line of sight, except for this case. how do you get your skimmer to 'hover' above the trees? Obviously we can't do that because I don't see any tree terrain supporting a falcon let alone a landspeeder...

RoV

thx for the input guys. Looks like we came to right conclusion on Friday night. Re LOS you can't shot between legs of models as the base DOES determine LOS for monsterous creatures however with vechiles it's the BODY that determines LOS. If you can only see a part of the vechile (50%???) then you can get a hull down (concealment) on a 4+. Re the Falcon, skimmers do NOT block LOS unless immobolised or destroyed. RoV we used to play the same rule at GW MtGravatt but not anymore for this little black duck.

SAS Fire Warriors?? I like the idea! Even better Kroot living bombs!! If only you could give them a transport option

But Charles, your example of shooting inbetween a wraith lords legs is a bit iffy. You can't shoot through enemy units ? ie at something behind it ? unless your stating that with a height advantage you can? then im no longer sure how it works :S

Well, going solely by page 20, if you can draw an actual, models eye line of sight to it, you can shoot it.

For example: You want to shoot at a target behind a Dreadnought. You can see the target, but the LOS passes over the base of the dreadnought. According to page 20, you can shoot at it.

According to page 6, you cant.

Now, I always play it that the base is the area that blocks LOS, Just because I think that way is easier on the noggin. But there are some pedants who insist actual models eye LOS is used at all times, except for the exceptions listed on page 20 (area terrain and combats).

well they a got rocks in their 'ed mate! A model totally occupies it's base 'cause it represents a MOVING, SHOOTING, ROLLING thingie. Just because it is modelled with it's legs apart don't mean it walks like a cowboy who has jumped from lvl 3 terrain into his saddle and you can rapid fire 10 bolters between them!! Ouch, now that makes the eye's kinda water