i read through the pinned post on undercoating and wanted to ask people's opinion on the topic.

for me, the sole purpose of undercoat is to make a base of paint that will stick to a model. the colour is unimportant, i can always lay down a base coat on top of the undercoat and then begin painting in colours. but my undercoat is there just to make the rest of the paint stick to the model.

now i assume that the GW spray paints are acrylic lacquer (i don't think it actually says on the can exactly what the contents are), as are the white knight squirts. acrylic lacquer isn't the best stuff for adhering to a model surface, i mean it's solvent based so it's ok, but its not made for that purpose and hence, chips occur when you're carrying your models around or you drop them, etc.

so i went to bunnings and got a can of etch primer (Wattyl Kill Rust) which is purpose made for adhesion, especially to non-ferrous metals (eg. white metal), so it sticks great, but it sprays pretty thick. i was wondering if anyone had any other ideas for a good undercoat, that is, a canned etch primer which sprays thin.
i can use the spray guns at work to spray thinned etch but i'd prefer to do it at home and i suppose that most people don't have an airbrush/spray gun set up and need to use cans too.

I use the Tamiya grey primer.

Let me summarize the rest of the thread for you.

"I use cheap export paint"
"I use White Knights"
"Whit Knights sucks"
"No it doesnt"
"I use Wattle Primer"
"I use Army Painter"
"Army Painter sucks"
"No it... wait, ok it kinda does if you use a can then leave it for a while before using it again"
"I use White Knights"
(repeat as above)

i lol'ed.


i use GW, it works well for me.



JoD

Pretty close, but you forgot:



And then the inevitable "But its too expensive and it sucks!"


(I use GW as well, and think the others suck )

after using a few different brands, i really have to say that the GW primers are by far the best i've used.

ok ok, thanks tenabrae, i'll be more specific.

i'm not interested in finding out which acrylic lacquer people prefer. I've tried the GW stuff, used a whole can. it's NOT a primer, i've got the chipped models to prove that it's not a primer. i think it's misleading that they sell it as such.
What i'm after is something that is really made to stick to metals. this means an etch primer, but one that sprays thin.
i'll check out the tamiya suggested by gonzo, but i don't really think that anything painted with tamiya paints is really supposed to be carried all over the city packed into a box full of other models.

so to summarise:
1. we want something fine and thin enough to get the full detail out of the model
2. we want something with maximum adhesion qualities, like industrial strength sticking power. so an etch or an enamel or something thats made for the job

I don't know anyone who uses anything other than a regular spray primer... not sure what Army Painter's formulation is but I tihnk it's just a high pigment content spray.

On the other side of the equation, varnishing your models properly after painting should prevent most flaking or chipping. If you're carrying your models in a box without padding between them, you're asking for trouble no matter what you do to protect them, if you're not, a good coat of varnish (a good gloss coat for strength followed by a matte if you want to take the shine off) should take care of them.

I think you may be expecting too much from your primer, mate. You don't need an etch primer and you certainly don't need industrial strength sticking power. You need to look at you painting process as a whole. That is to say, don't think your choice of primer will have an affect of the overall durability of your paint job.

A primer, ultimately, needs to provide a nice surface for your paints to adhere to and flow over. Too shiny and it can run. Too matt and you don't get a nice flow or worst case scenario it bleeds.
And it also needs to be reasonably thin to avoid clogging detail.
Any of the suggestions posted by Tenabrae are fine (personally though I think GW spray is a rip and your modelling $$$ could be better spent elsewhere). Just apply 2 light coats and brush touch hard to reach places with thinned paint.

Durability of your painted miniatures comes with how (and if) you varnish your figures. No varnish and your figures wear very quickly with continued use. There are arguments over whether to gloss varnish first to provide additional protection but this is essentially bollocks as matt and gloss are the same thing just different finishes - their durability is identical. 2 light coats of matt varnish (I recommend Tamiya Flat Spray as it is nearly impossible to spray badly) is sufficient to provide many years of continuos play as long as figures are transported in a suitably padded case.

Oh, and tamiya paints are fine for gaming and are just as durable as GW and Vallejo. They all need to be varnished once finished.

I hope this puts things in better perspective for you.

For my Lizardmen I'm using a grey primer from Bunnings. I really like it, because the paint sticks to it much better than any other spray I've found.
I only ever varnish metal models, and tend to just put a bit of gloss over the raised and pointy areas, then matte varnish spray to dull down the gloss. I never have any problems with chipped paint, and I transport my models in cardboard boxes/tupperware with toilet roll inside.

NB: just to be completely clear, everything i'm saying and have said relates only to metals. anything will stick to a plastic, plus the plastic models are generally of less concern becasue they're almost always rank and file and have had less effort put into thier painting.

I think that wargaming miniatures present a unique problem in terms of painting methods and products. With any other type of model making, the model's one and only purpose is to look good. you build and paint it and then it spends the rest of it's life on a shelf perhaps even under a perspex cover and the worst it'll ever have to deal with is a bit of dust.

But wargames miniatures are meant to be used. They get travelled to and from gaming locations, get packed and unpacked, are handled very frequently during a game, fall over when trying to find an awkward equilibrium on the side of a hill and sometimes they can even fall off the table onto the floor. So the problem presented is one of durability while also needing to look great.

I've been concentrating on my painting skills a lot in the past year and as i get better i'm trying to do more and more to protect the model that i've spent so many hours working on. I clean the model of release agent, i glue and pin everything and i clearcoat with a polyurethane which is tough as nails. But i know from experience that using acrylic lacquer as an undercoat is not sufficient and will result in chipping and flaking. It is simply NOT made for sticking to metal.

The model painting products available at the moment are incredibly good in my opinion. Anything produced by GW is superior to others i've seen, but the spray they make is not a good enough undercoat, rather, it makes a fantastic base coat. Now i know that etch is a perfect undercoat for sticking to white metal, and i know that i can give it a perfect viscosity for spraying models if i thin and spray manually. So i can make a pretty reasonable assumption that there is a company somewhere who is producing an etch primer in a can thin enough to use on models. the problem is finding it without having to personally test every can on the market.

so if someone's reading this and they reckon they have the perfect solution to this problem then let me know. otherwise, if you come across the ideal product years from now, post it on a forum and let others know because there's always a better way to do things. if i spend fifteen hours painstakingly painting a model, then i don't want to have to retouch it. ever.

citizen: whats that primer you're using? it could be what i'm after

jas: i wasn't aware that too shiny an undercoat can make a top coat run. thats a very useful bit of info, thanks for that.

Yes - basically the key to getting a nice finish when painting is using thin paints. Not watery mind you but thin. Too shiny a primer and the thin paints can run, maybe not dramtically but certainly you can find it hard to control. It can be especially important if you start using airbrushes.

Without trying to sound like an a$$ though, I think you are missing the point that Tenabrae and I are trying to make.
The key to protecting your minis is not the primer but how you finish the figure - irrespective of whether they are metals or plastic. I have been painting miniatures for 20 years and wargaming for 16 of those. Varnish a figure properly, irrespective of whether you have used an acrylic laquer, an enamel or an etch primer and the figures finish will be equally durable. No varnish and... well you're stuffed as far as I am concern (I'm not saying you are doing this though!). Regular use will see wear on the edges and chipping. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing is bullet proof. Drop a mini from high enough or graze along an abrasive surface and they will get damaged.
Sure, how I would paint a diorama figure is different to how I would paint a wargaming mini but it is technique and not materials.

I don't want to start more arguments or anything here but I understand what Green Gryphon is saying and he is in fact right.
I work in the spray painting industry and the fact is that while you are right Jas a gloss varnish and then a matt varnish will indeed protect the miniature very well for many years and possibly even for ever. The fact is that the only thing actually holding the paint on the miniature is this varnish.
The undercoat if its not an etch primer is not actually adhereing to the model but actually just sitting on top. Over time it will actually release from the model and with out that varnish holding it all in place it would actually completely strip off.

What Green Gryphon is asking is would in not be better to have the under coat actually stick to the model, and then varnish the finished job for extra durabillity. I beleive it is.

As for what to use if you want to do this:

I have tried a few different primers and etch primers and have found the Wattyl Kill Rust Etch Primer the best, Though Green Gryphon said he found it thick, I personally have not found this. Could be the batch or possibly wheather conditions though.

Again this is only in regards to metal models as almost anything will stick to plastic.

Just my 2c

Whilst I see your point (as I am well aware of the chemical merits of an etch primer) what I am trying to do is twofold - firstly save a fellow hobbyist time from chasing a "mythical solution" to a problem that essentially doesn't exist, and then save that same hobbyist money from buying expensive hobby materials which offer no advantage over cheaper alternatives.

I have wargaming minis that are 14 years old and do not exihibit the symptons you describe in your first paragraph above. These were not undercoated with an etch primer. They were varnished with 2 light coats of spray matt varnish. The only damage that has occured to my minis over time is dropping from height and rubbing against abrasive surface (harshly).

My recommendation is Wattyl Quick 'N' Easy - $8 from a hardware store. It offers a level of consistency that Squirts and White Knights don't offer and a better matt finish. Obviously it is substantially cheaper than GW and also offers a superior consistency from can to can. It does not obscure detail (a concern of the OP) and works effectively on both metals and plastics. 2 light coats is sufficient and I recommend a touch up of hard to reach places with thinned acrylic paint before basecoating. Once the mini has been painted, decaled and weathered apply 2 light coats of Tamiya Flat Clear Spray $12 from most hobby stores. Again Tamiya's spray offeres a level of consistency absent from other products on the market. This is sufficient for regular gaming but will not protect a mini from constant harsh abrasives or dropping from height. The gloss vs matt varnish is a myth. Where it stems from is that because gloss causes a smooth refelective surface it is tempting to layer it up thick. You are thereby obscuring details but certainly putting a thick coat on the mini. Matt varnish can be layered as well but needs to be built up in layers with sufficient drying times between. If not the varnish can have detrimental effects - cloudiness, crystalizing etc - as a mattt finish is made from microscopic bumps in the finish.

To the OP, again I hope this info helps. Don't stress about the etch primer, it sounds like you have a number of excellent practices in place for your modelling. Keep it up and use the right techniques to protect your minis post painting. I find there is a massive amount of misinformation out there and I have learnt all the above from many years of trial and error.
Hopefully I can save you that same grief.

As I said you would only see these symptoms if you didn't use the varnish. You did use varnish and therefore you didn't see this effect. Also I don't think money is the issue as the etch primer is the same price as the quick and easy that you are using.


As I said you are right in that if you spray the miniature with a varnish it will protect the miniature no matter what undercoat you use.
But the fact still is that there are better alternatives.

There is probably even a better alternative out there then etch primer, and some times it doesn't suit your particular painting style anyway especially if you don't want to paint from Grey.



This is what the Op is asking and everyone is giving there alternative and not really answering the question.

jas: you don't sound anything like an ass mate, this conversation has turned out to be really interesting

i kinda feel that the main thrust of your argument is that you think that going through a really thorough painting process is overkill for a wargames miniature. i've got two answers to that; the first is that i have had the odd nick on my models and thats even after clear coating with a polyurethane which is much tougher than the varnish that you're using. So my experience backs the need for a more thorough painting regime.

And secondly, even if i hadn't yet experienced any problems with my paint coming off, if i knew that in theory there was a more secure way to apply my paint, then i'd try to do it. I've been painting some Malifaux miniatures lately and really taking my time and putting all my skill into it. Each model has taken many, many hours to paint and i intend to game with these models. So if i can do anything at all to prevent these models from coming to some sort grief and wasting all that time i put into them then i'm going to do it, even if i think it's overkill.

leigh: thanks for putting your bit in, those guys almost had me convinced
Of those etch primers that you have used, did you find anything that was a little thinner that i might want to have a go with? I am still using the wattyl and it's not bad. at least i know it's going to stick. the model comes out ok in the end, especially with the slightly larger scale malifaux minis but i've just been putting on a really light coat to just cover the model. But i don't even want to try it on something with a really detailed texture like fur or feathers, i know it's going to clog up the detail.

Find out what Zordana uses.
She's the best painter and is by far the most knowledgable.

God damn it DBB, youre such a F@&!(%# fanboi!!!!!!

Apply a Matt Varnish over a shiny undercoat and it is fine. It makes a really good surface to paint over. I tend to use coloured undercoats and will alternate between gloss or matt sprays depending on what gives the closest colour to what I am after.

I will have to give Wattyl Kill Rust Etch Primer a test and see how it works.

Don't use KillRust as an undercoat for your dollies.
KillRust Primer is designed for other KillRust paints only. Your normal acrylic paints will not stick to it.

It is also designed to be thick when it dries, hiding detail on the models. The purpose it to protect corroding metal and to also hide weld lines or seams in metal work. Bot what wargamers want.

You need Wattyl Super Etch Primer, or Wattyl Industrial Etch Primer. They dry quite thin, adhere to the metal, and hold paint very well.

You will probably have to find an auto shop like Supercheap or Repco or Wattyl Trade Depot to buy it though.

Cheers
Dropbear

awesome! toally awesome! thats exactly the advice i'm after. thanks man!

Sadly enough I used to work for Wattyl. I still use the super etch though.